Attention Deficit Disorder

Weaning slowly off Zoloft ??

Question:

Hi, Chip, I tapered off Zoloft several years ago without any problems. Except for the eventual return of depression, which caused me to restart Zoloft. ***My goal is to see if I am able to stay off of an AD period.  You’d figure after being on them for over 20 years the body could possibly do okay without it.  Time will tell. As for the Wellbutrin, at this point, my mind seems a pinch clearer.  So now I question myself that possibly over time I will see a bit more improvement. Once again, time will tell… smiles, Elise

The body does change for sure. I was on AD’s for more than 10 years and am now off them. So far so good but there isn’t any guarantee that the situation will continue.  It is worth the try though. — Ron P Home Page:  http://fp.kwic.com/~rwebb Just remember….if the world didn’t suck, we’d all fall off. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Jackie, Thanks for your support.  Not wanting to be on an AD is my goal.  It was dealing with the brain fog I seemed to have so much of the time.  At this point I feel more clear headed but do have to think a bit harder at times. My hopes if this all goes well, that in time I may see additional improvement. smiles, Elise

The "brain fog" was something that I detested. When the brain fog lifted after taking the AD’s for so long, I found the increased highs and lows of emotions a little difficult to deal with at first but that took care of itself with a bit of time. ((((((Elise))))))))) — Ron P Home Page:  http://fp.kwic.com/~rwebb Just remember….if the world didn’t suck, we’d all fall off. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

***My goal is to see if I am able to stay off of an AD period.

That was my goal also. To see what meds I needed to be on, and which meds I could do without. As for the Wellbutrin, at this point, my mind seems a pinch clearer.  So now I question myself that possibly over time I will see a bit more

improvement. You said you had concentration problems as a child, which is consistant with ADD. Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi Elise want to wish you luck in getting off zoloft, my doctor just lowered my dosage from 100 to 50 and I imagine he well want to take me off it alltogether, I really don’t see to much problem with that, I only been on zoloft for about 4 months to help me deal with my agoraphobic fear of flying, and since the whole trip work out so well I ask him to keep me on a lower dosage to help with a few other situational problems  I would imagine that our situations are different, but you should never underestimate your contribution to getting and feeling better  p.s. want to thank you personally for your help and friendship for my own wellbeing love Jim — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Ron, Just wondering what AD you were on and how long you have been off of it? smiles, Elise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The body does change for sure. I was on AD’s for more than 10 years and am now off them. So far so good but there isn’t any guarantee that the situation will continue.  It is worth the try though. — Ron P Home Page:  http://fp.kwic.com/~rwebb Just remember….if the world didn’t suck, we’d all fall off. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Chip, Yes I have always had concentration problems.  If I can get off the ADD and feel I am thinking clearer that would be a good start in my book. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ***My goal is to see if I am able to stay off of an AD period. That was my goal also. To see what meds I needed to be on, and which meds I could do without. As for the Wellbutrin, at this point, my mind seems a pinch clearer.  So now I question myself that possibly over time I will see a bit more improvement. You said you had concentration problems as a child, which is consistant with ADD. Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Ron, That’s what I’m hoping for!!! smiles, Elise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The "brain fog" was something that I detested. When the brain fog lifted after taking the AD’s for so long, I found the increased highs and lows of emotions a little difficult to deal with at first but that took care of itself with a bit of time. ((((((Elise))))))))) — Ron P Home Page:  http://fp.kwic.com/~rwebb Just remember….if the world didn’t suck, we’d all fall off. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, James, Thank you.  Your support means a lot to me. I wish you much success with the Zoloft decrease. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Elise want to wish you luck in getting off zoloft, my doctor just lowered my dosage from 100 to 50 and I imagine he well want to take me off it alltogether, I really don’t see to much problem with that, I only been on zoloft for about 4 months to help me deal with my agoraphobic fear of flying, and since the whole trip work out so well I ask him to keep me on a lower dosage to help with a few other situational problems  I would imagine that our situations are different, but you should never underestimate your contribution to getting and feeling better  p.s. want to thank you personally for your help and friendship for my own wellbeing love Jim — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Ron, Just wondering what AD you were on and how long you have been off of it? smiles, Elise

I had to figure out the answer to your question! My sense of time sometimes is totally messed up. I couldn’t believe that I started the process in November 2003!! Time really flies at times.  I could have sworn that I came off Serzone this last January but that isn’t possible because of the reality of the timeline<:-  I missed a whole year with my recall of the event. The last AD that I was on was Serzone (it was the only one that worked on a long term basis) and I had to come off it January 2004 because it was taken off the market by the Canadian authorities and my prescription was running out. I started weaning off it in late November – early December 2003 and sometime in January 2004 was completely off. The process was gradual and not linear by any means. I certainly sympathize and empathize with people coming off of a medication. — Ron P Home Page:  http://fp.kwic.com/~rwebb Just remember….if the world didn’t suck, we’d all fall off. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Ron, That’s what I’m hoping for!!! smiles, Elise The "brain fog" was something that I detested. When the brain fog lifted after taking the AD’s for so long, I found the increased highs and lows of emotions a little difficult to deal with at first but that took care of itself with a bit of time. ((((((Elise))))))))) —

There is a down-side to this and that is the return of the low points that haven’t been experienced for quite some time. I had to learn to "deal with them" without becoming overwhelmed by them. Luckily, as you are weaning off the medication, you are weaning on to increased emotions. If you wean off slowly enough so that it isn’t really taxing on your system, you get the chance to experience some highs and lows that are not "full-force." (((((((((Elise))))))))))) — Ron P Home Page:  http://fp.kwic.com/~rwebb Just remember….if the world didn’t suck, we’d all fall off. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Chip, Yes I have always had concentration problems.  If I can get off the ADD and feel I am thinking clearer that would be a good start in my book.

<g You meant off the Zoloft, right? Have you looked at any of those online ADHD forms? Hang on… http://add.about.com/cs/diagnosis/tp/sitesdiagnosis.htm Has some listed, the Amen site ones are quite good but his treatment and subtypes aren’t generally accepted in mainstream ADHD treatment. I took some printed forms to my Pdoc after he suggested ADHD and then I asked for a neuro-psych evaluation to be done too. Vashti — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Chip, Yes I have always had concentration problems.  If I can get off the ADD and feel I am thinking clearer that would be a good start in my book.

Get off the ADD? Now, that’s what I call a concentration problem!  ;) Or maybe, a paying-attention-to-detail problem. Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Vashti, LOL!  Yes.  I will check this site out when and if my life EVER settles down… smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Chip, Yes I have always had concentration problems.  If I can get off the ADD and feel I am thinking clearer that would be a good start in my book. <g You meant off the Zoloft, right? Have you looked at any of those online ADHD forms? Hang on… http://add.about.com/cs/diagnosis/tp/sitesdiagnosis.htm Has some listed, the Amen site ones are quite good but his treatment and subtypes aren’t generally accepted in mainstream ADHD treatment. I took some printed forms to my Pdoc after he suggested ADHD and then I asked for a neuro-psych evaluation to be done too. Vashti — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Ron, I am trying to stay on top of the highs and lows.  Thanks for the reminder since my life is so hectic right now. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Ron, That’s what I’m hoping for!!! smiles, Elise The "brain fog" was something that I detested. When the brain fog lifted after taking the AD’s for so long, I found the increased highs and lows of emotions a little difficult to deal with at first but that took care of itself with a bit of time. ((((((Elise))))))))) — There is a down-side to this and that is the return of the low points that haven’t been experienced for quite some time. I had to learn to "deal with them" without becoming overwhelmed by them. Luckily, as you are weaning off the medication, you are weaning on to increased emotions. If you wean off slowly enough so that it isn’t really taxing on your system, you get the chance to experience some highs and lows that are not "full-force." (((((((((Elise))))))))))) — Ron P Home Page:  http://fp.kwic.com/~rwebb Just remember….if the world didn’t suck, we’d all fall off. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

No, actually it’s due to having my son in the hospital…  His bowel is inflamed and he’s running a temp. and is in pain.  This has been going on for about 2 months. It’s been an ongoing saga for a few months.  Trips to Urgent Care and our local ER.  I took him up Thursday night and they gave him an antacid and some Vicodin for pain.  Brian had already called earlier in the week and scheduled an appt. with our GP for Friday so that follow up from Thursday’s ER trip was already in place.  We saw our GP yesterday and he put him into the hospital after the appointment.  His temp is down to 100.9 (was 102.3 when admitted) and he’s still in pain.  He’s not allowed to eat for a few days and is feasting on an IV drip along with the occasional ice chips.  The surgeon (same one who did his appendectomy a year ago) wants to see if he improves with the antibiotic.  Also re-do the CT scan when his bowel is "settled".  If no improvement, then surgery.  If he does improve the GP wants to wait about 2 months and do a scope.  Brian isn’t too excited bout that…ugh!  Time will tell… smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Chip, Yes I have always had concentration problems.  If I can get off the ADD and feel I am thinking clearer that would be a good start in my book. Get off the ADD? Now, that’s what I call a concentration problem!  ;) Or maybe, a paying-attention-to-detail problem. Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

No, actually it’s due to having my son in the hospital…

Sorry to hear that, Elise. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – His bowel is inflamed and he’s running a temp. and is in pain.  This has been going on for about 2 months. It’s been an ongoing saga for a few months.  Trips to Urgent Care and our local ER.  I took him up Thursday night and they gave him an antacid and some Vicodin for pain.  Brian had already called earlier in the week and scheduled an appt. with our GP for Friday so that follow up from Thursday’s ER trip was already in place.  We saw our GP yesterday and he put him into the hospital after the appointment.  His temp is down to 100.9 (was 102.3 when admitted) and he’s still in pain.  He’s not allowed to eat for a few days and is feasting on an IV drip along with the occasional ice chips.  The surgeon (same one who did his appendectomy a year ago) wants to see if he improves with the antibiotic.  Also re-do the CT scan when his bowel is "settled".  If no improvement, then surgery.  If he does improve the GP wants to wait about 2 months and do a scope.  Brian isn’t too excited bout that…ugh!  Time will tell…

It sounds like your son doesn’t have a diagnosis for the belly problems yet. I’ll be praying for him, Elise. Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi, all, I am in the process of weaning off of Zoloft.  It’s been about, if not over a month now.  I’m down to .125 mg (think that’s right).  I’ve been at .125 for over 2 weeks.  I’m trying to find a good time to completely quit this dosage or at least go to every other day.  Any idea of what to expect? After it’s out of my system for a period of time I’m a bit worried of what to expect.  Each time I wean down, I have a day or so where I am moody, irritable, or in hubby’s words "b*tchy" (I can’t blame him for that…lol). I have tried to be very mindful of what I am doing and thus far have ridden out the day or so of these feelings. I am supposed to start on WellbutrinXL after I am off of the Zoloft.  MY game plan is to try to be off the ADs totally unless I get to a point where I feel I need back on them.  I will continue to stay on the Clonazepam, 2 times daily. I have been feeling very good as I tape down and do want to try to stay off of the ADs, if possible. Any thoughts, similar situations on this would be helpful… smiles, Elise

weaing off an ssri is different then a tca if you read my note to Gordy–these drugs do create discontinuation to one degree or another due to their activity in the brain and neuronal pathways of other tissues and systems in your body-I think you mean you are taking 12 mg–if this is correct then you can continue to cut this dose in half but you may need to increase your klonopin so that you don’t care as much about feeling bitchy–if you are actually taking .12mg then it is so low it actually isn’t doing much of anything at this piont and you can simply start on wellbutrin slowly and will probably still need more bdz meds-drink lots of water, use sugar liberally (for now) and keep riding the treadmill — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

:::::Gently snipped::::: ::I feel I need back on them.  I will continue to stay on the Clonazepam, 2 ::times daily. ::I have been feeling very good as I tape down and do want to try to stay off ::of the ADs, if possible. ::Any thoughts, similar situations on this would be helpful… Dear Elise, Talk to your doctor about putting wellbutrin on hold for now. There`s nothing wrong in wanting to see how you can do without antidepressants. You won`t know unless you give it a try. I`m really glad you are feeling good Jackie ~*~Alone we can do so little, together we can do so much~*~   — Helen Keller — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Chip, I tapered off Zoloft several years ago without any problems. Except for the eventual return of depression, which caused me to restart Zoloft.

***My goal is to see if I am able to stay off of an AD period.  You’d figure after being on them for over 20 years the body could possibly do okay without it.  Time will tell. As for the Wellbutrin, at this point, my mind seems a pinch clearer.  So now I question myself that possibly over time I will see a bit more improvement. Once again, time will tell… smiles, Elise For the taper off, I think I started at 100 mg/day and dropped to 50 mg/day for several weeks, then dropped to 25 mg/day for several weeks, then discontinued Zoloft. I had no withdrawal symptoms. I thought you were going to start Wellbutrin for ADD. Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

  I am in the process of weaning off of Zoloft.  It’s been about, if not over – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – a month now.  I’m down to .125 mg (think that’s right).  I’ve been at  .125 for over 2 weeks.  I’m trying to find a good time to completely quit this dosage or at least go to every other day.  Any idea of what to expect? After it’s out of my system for a period of time I’m a bit worried of what to expect.  Each time I wean down, I have a day or so where I am moody, irritable, or in hubby’s words "b*tchy" (I can’t blame him for that…lol). I have tried to be very mindful of what I am doing and thus far have ridden out the day or so of these feelings. I am supposed to start on WellbutrinXL after I am off of the Zoloft.  MY game plan is to try to be off the ADs totally unless I get to a point where I feel I need back on them.  I will continue to stay on the Clonazepam, 2 times daily.  I have been feeling very good as I tape down and do want to try to stay off of the ADs, if possible.  Any thoughts, similar situations on this would be helpful… smiles, Elise I take it you meant 12.5 mg of Zoloft. Did you wean off in increments of 12.5 mg? If so you could just stop it now without further problems. Of course the *thought* of being *without* any medication sometimes causes some extra anxiety (I shouldn’t have said that but you knew it already Keep us posted. I feel it’s a good idea not to take the Wellbutrin

now. ***Hi, Philip, Yes, I did mean 12.5 mg…duh me!!!  Initially I quit taking the night time 50 mg tablet and then I started cutting down by 12.5 with the a.m. 50 mg. My goal is to be AD free, if possible.  I am feeling rather good for the most parts.  I tend to get b*tch lte in the evening or early in the a.m. (which is also 2 of the cigs breaks I have given up)… I am feeling more clear minded and don’t want to start the Wellbutrin unless I feel the need to.  Time will tell… smiles, Elise Philip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all, I am in the process of weaning off of Zoloft.  It’s been about, if not over a month now.  I’m down to .125 mg (think that’s right).  I’ve been at  .125 for over 2 weeks.  I’m trying to find a good time to completely quit this dosage or at least go to every other day.  Any idea of what to expect? After it’s out of my system for a period of time I’m a bit worried of what to expect.  Each time I wean down, I have a day or so where I am moody, irritable, or in hubby’s words "b*tchy" (I can’t blame him for that…lol). I have tried to be very mindful of what I am doing and thus far have ridden out the day or so of these feelings. I am supposed to start on WellbutrinXL after I am off of the Zoloft.  MY game plan is to try to be off the ADs totally unless I get to a point where I feel I need back on them.  I will continue to stay on the Clonazepam, 2 times daily. I have been feeling very good as I tape down and do want to try to stay off of the ADs, if possible. Any thoughts, similar situations on this would be helpful… smiles, Elise weaing off an ssri is different then a tca if you read my note to Gordy–these drugs do create discontinuation to one degree or another due to their activity in the brain and neuronal pathways of other tissues and systems in your body-I think you mean you are taking 12 mg–if this is correct then you can continue to cut this dose in half but you may need to increase your klonopin so that you don’t care as much about feeling bitchy–if you are actually taking .12mg then it is so low it actually isn’t doing much of anything at this piont and you can simply start on wellbutrin slowly and will probably still need more bdz meds-drink lots of water, use sugar liberally (for now) and keep riding the treadmill

Hi, LM, LOL!  Even I couldn’t bite the tablet small enough to get .12 mg…<g One of my questions about the discontinuation is will it dissipate over time?  I’m strong and very ready to get off of the ADs, know the tools, have the meds and really want to give this a try.  Then I’ll only be on the Clonazepam, if all goes well.  I’m amazed at how I can think somewhat clearer, but know there’s room for improvement. I also have a script for Inderall which does help me and I feel I could use if I felt some excessive anxiety coming on in a particular situation. Why use sugar liberally?  I am a dieter, OOPS, I meant "healthy eater"…<g I hope all is well with you, LM. smiles, Elise The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Jackie, Thanks for your support.  Not wanting to be on an AD is my goal.  It was dealing with the brain fog I seemed to have so much of the time.  At this point I feel more clear headed but do have to think a bit harder at times. My hopes if this all goes well, that in time I may see additional improvement. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :::::Gently snipped::::: ::I feel I need back on them.  I will continue to stay on the Clonazepam, 2 ::times daily. ::I have been feeling very good as I tape down and do want to try to stay off ::of the ADs, if possible. ::Any thoughts, similar situations on this would be helpful… Dear Elise, Talk to your doctor about putting wellbutrin on hold for now. There`s nothing wrong in wanting to see how you can do without antidepressants. You won`t know unless you give it a try. I`m really glad you are feeling good Jackie ~*~Alone we can do so little, together we can do so much~*~   — Helen Keller — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all, I am in the process of weaning off of Zoloft.  It’s been about, if not over a month now.  I’m down to .125 mg (think that’s right).  I’ve been at .125 for over 2 weeks.  I’m trying to find a good time to completely quit this dosage or at least go to every other day.  Any idea of what to expect? After it’s out of my system for a period of time I’m a bit worried of what to expect.  Each time I wean down, I have a day or so where I am moody, irritable, or in hubby’s words "b*tchy" (I can’t blame him for that…lol). I have tried to be very mindful of what I am doing and thus far have ridden out the day or so of these feelings. I am supposed to start on WellbutrinXL after I am off of the Zoloft.  MY game plan is to try to be off the ADs totally unless I get to a point where I feel I need back on them.  I will continue to stay on the Clonazepam, 2 times daily. I have been feeling very good as I tape down and do want to try to stay off of the ADs, if possible. Any thoughts, similar situations on this would be helpful…

Hi Elise, I tapered off Zoloft several years ago without any problems. Except for the eventual return of depression, which caused me to restart Zoloft. For the taper off, I think I started at 100 mg/day and dropped to 50 mg/day for several weeks, then dropped to 25 mg/day for several weeks, then discontinued Zoloft. I had no withdrawal symptoms. I thought you were going to start Wellbutrin for ADD. Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all, I am in the process of weaning off of Zoloft.  It’s been about, if not over a month now.  I’m down to .125 mg (think that’s right).  I’ve been at .125 for over 2 weeks.  I’m trying to find a good time to completely quit this dosage or at least go to every other day.  Any idea of what to expect? After it’s out of my system for a period of time I’m a bit worried of what to expect.  Each time I wean down, I have a day or so where I am moody, irritable, or in hubby’s words "b*tchy" (I can’t blame him for that…lol). I have tried to be very mindful of what I am doing and thus far have ridden out the day or so of these feelings. I am supposed to start on WellbutrinXL after I am off of the Zoloft.  MY game plan is to try to be off the ADs totally unless I get to a point where I feel I need back on them.  I will continue to stay on the Clonazepam, 2 times daily. I have been feeling very good as I tape down and do want to try to stay off of the ADs, if possible. Any thoughts, similar situations on this would be helpful… smiles, Elise

I take it you meant 12.5 mg of Zoloft. Did you wean off in increments of 12.5 mg? If so you could just stop it now without further problems. Of course the *thought* of being *without* any medication sometimes causes some extra anxiety (I shouldn’t have said that but you knew it already Keep us posted. I feel it’s a good idea not to take the Wellbutrin now. Philip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, all, I am in the process of weaning off of Zoloft.  It’s been about, if not over a month now.  I’m down to .125 mg (think that’s right).  I’ve been at .125 for over 2 weeks.  I’m trying to find a good time to completely quit this dosage or at least go to every other day.  Any idea of what to expect? After it’s out of my system for a period of time I’m a bit worried of what to expect.  Each time I wean down, I have a day or so where I am moody, irritable, or in hubby’s words "b*tchy" (I can’t blame him for that…lol). I have tried to be very mindful of what I am doing and thus far have ridden out the day or so of these feelings. I am supposed to start on WellbutrinXL after I am off of the Zoloft.  MY game plan is to try to be off the ADs totally unless I get to a point where I feel I need back on them.  I will continue to stay on the Clonazepam, 2 times daily. I have been feeling very good as I tape down and do want to try to stay off of the ADs, if possible. Any thoughts, similar situations on this would be helpful… smiles, Elise — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

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Tired and in need of some insight

Question:

Hi, Never posted here before but I need some assist, or even just some validation that my problem is not just mine. Before we get to the real issue. Some history. I am 37 and have an 11 year old son who is ADHD. We have struggled since birth to be patient with one another and try to handle things best we can. His grades in school are so so and only slightly improved by the Adderal he takes now, 30mg XR On top of this, he seems to have an eating disorder, Dallas hides food and eats it at night and such. Of course being ADHD, he often leaves the dishes hidden (closet, under dresser, top drawer etc) because he thinks at the time he will clean it up later and then of course later never comes. I was divorced in 96 and only recently remarried. I also have a 15 year old daughter. Adjusting has been extremely painful for my children to the new step father. Mark is a very controlling man and at 6ft 3 a very intimidating man. He also can be very fair and yet firm in his household rules. Don’t get me wrong, I love my husband and I am trying very hard to be understanding and patient and hopeful that he and Dallas work issues out between themselves. So many times I have had to stop myself from interfering in disputes and had to really keep my mouth shut. Last night we had an issue. One of my step children was here over the weekend and lost a game for her game system that she had brought, so logical thing to do is turn the house upside down and look for it. So in doing so, Mark went into Dallas room and of course he found a few things like some bowls/spoons and a used ziplock bag – evidence of Dallas eating in his room and hiding it. So he yells at him (which I don’t really approve of the name calling, I really think its ugly and ineffective) Then he goes and gets the paddle. Now, the paddle is not often used in our house and only when there has been a long discussion and the kids understand why they are being disciplined. So while Dallas was partially wedge between the dresser and bed on the floor, pulling stuff (junk and trash) out from under it, Mark was really angry and reached out with plenty of force and swatted Dallas on the backside and told him to "hurry up!" Dallas was already terrified by the whole ordeal and had no idea the swat was coming. And it was then I said "hey, enough" and intervened. Mark then got more angry and pushed past me out of the room and I followed him to the other room where we had words. I said do not strike my child in anger, you calm down first. And he got defensive and told me to handle it in exasperation. It was pretty loud and I stood my ground. One of the first times I have since our marriage when it comes to this sorta thing. I really felt like this was a suckerpunch and Dallas wasn’t prepared for it. Had it been handled differently, where Dallas was standing and knew what was coming after plenty of discussion I likely would have supported several licks as discipline. So, we had a very silent night after I went into the bedroom to go to bed, I spent some time with Dallas in his room going over (yet again) the rules of the house about food in the bedrooms and so forth. I have decided to take some material things away from him for punishment (his game system and stuff). I got up several times during the night with several trains of thought. I felt like I have let my son down and I am not defending him like I should. I am angry at Mark for his tactic and I am determined to stand my ground on this issue ("do not strike in anger") I am angry at Mark for not knowing more about Dallas, his issues and how to handle them better. Although I have offered tons of printed information to him about ADHD and some of the subsets of issues it can bring. So Mark calls me this morning on his way to work and says "I just want to know one thing, why are you mad at me?" And I restated the same things I had said lastnight, "Do not strike my son in anger, think it through first and I would have the same opinion if it were one of your children or any child for that matter" Until he hung up on me. I’m -done- At my wits end with all of this. I am very torn between defending my son and my stance on how to handle spankings and not interfering with the delicate development of my son’s relationship with his step father. Any comments or anything ? Susan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Never posted here before but I need some assist, or even just some validation that my problem is not just mine. Before we get to the real issue. Some history. I am 37 and have an 11 year old son who is ADHD. We have struggled since birth to be patient with one another and try to handle things best we can. His grades in school are so so and only slightly improved by the Adderal he takes now, 30mg XR On top of this, he seems to have an eating disorder, Dallas hides food and eats it at night and such. Of course being ADHD, he often leaves the dishes hidden (closet, under dresser, top drawer etc) because he thinks at the time he will clean it up later and then of course later never comes. I was divorced in 96 and only recently remarried. I also have a 15 year old daughter. Adjusting has been extremely painful for my children to the new step father. Mark is a very controlling man and at 6ft 3 a very intimidating man. He also can be very fair and yet firm in his household rules. Don’t get me wrong, I love my husband and I am trying very hard to be understanding and patient and hopeful that he and Dallas work issues out between themselves. So many times I have had to stop myself from interfering in disputes and had to really keep my mouth shut. Last night we had an issue. One of my step children was here over the weekend and lost a game for her game system that she had brought, so logical thing to do is turn the house upside down and look for it. So in doing so, Mark went into Dallas room and of course he found a few things like some bowls/spoons and a used ziplock bag – evidence of Dallas eating in his room and hiding it. So he yells at him (which I don’t really approve of the name calling, I really think its ugly and ineffective) Then he goes and gets the paddle. Now, the paddle is not often used in our house and only when there has been a long discussion and the kids understand why they are being disciplined. So while Dallas was partially wedge between the dresser and bed on the floor, pulling stuff (junk and trash) out from under it, Mark was really angry and reached out with plenty of force and swatted Dallas on the backside and told him to "hurry up!" Dallas was already terrified by the whole ordeal and had no idea the swat was coming. And it was then I said "hey, enough" and intervened. Mark then got more angry and pushed past me out of the room and I followed him to the other room where we had words. I said do not strike my child in anger, you calm down first. And he got defensive and told me to handle it in exasperation. It was pretty loud and I stood my ground. One of the first times I have since our marriage when it comes to this sorta thing. I really felt like this was a suckerpunch and Dallas wasn’t prepared for it. Had it been handled differently, where Dallas was standing and knew what was coming after plenty of discussion I likely would have supported several licks as discipline. So, we had a very silent night after I went into the bedroom to go to bed, I spent some time with Dallas in his room going over (yet again) the rules of the house about food in the bedrooms and so forth. I have decided to take some material things away from him for punishment (his game system and stuff). I got up several times during the night with several trains of thought. I felt like I have let my son down and I am not defending him like I should. I am angry at Mark for his tactic and I am determined to stand my ground on this issue ("do not strike in anger") I am angry at Mark for not knowing more about Dallas, his issues and how to handle them better. Although I have offered tons of printed information to him about ADHD and some of the subsets of issues it can bring. So Mark calls me this morning on his way to work and says "I just want to know one thing, why are you mad at me?" And I restated the same things I had said lastnight, "Do not strike my son in anger, think it through first and I would have the same opinion if it were one of your children or any child for that matter" Until he hung up on me. I’m -done- At my wits end with all of this. I am very torn between defending my son and my stance on how to handle spankings and not interfering with the delicate development of my son’s relationship with his step father. Any comments or anything ? Susan

Well I’d say don’t try to restate let things get calm before attempting to discus what happened.  You may have trouble repairing the relationship with your son.  He might decide not to come to you if he’s afraid of a bully or doesn’t like a situation.  Well it’s time he seperated emotionally from his parents anyway.  In a way you did let him down but if he survives the idea that life just ain’t fair at times then it will be better that he gets this rude shock over younger rather than grow up thinking authority is his friend when it has no intention of helping you at all. He’ll be fine once he realizes that authority is not his friend and never has been.  Which takes a while.  They can pretend and maybe fool you but an adult can’t really be a kid’s friend and they shouldn’t try in my opinion.   I’d say popping the kid in the ass is less painful than lecturing him. Well according to me one pop in the ass is punishment enough for the origional infraction.  Either pop him in ass or take his stuff not both. The pop in the ass is better or a punishment that is over faster is usually better.  Because these kids do lots impulsively which get them in trouble.  If you drag it out over a few days then it won’t be the deterent it will usually cause resentment.  I’d say let him paddle the kid as long as it isn’t excessive force and do nothing to him but pretend you agree until you get some alone time.  Seeing them argue makes them realize how easily they could play you two off the center to get what they want. Granted you’ve dropped this poor man into this mess I’d advise him to drop by and apologize for losing his temper.  If he knows that this big adult lost his temper then he might think there is hope for him.  We aren’t expected to be perfect.

Response:

Follow this link: Spanking: Does It Work with ADHD Children? http://www.christianadhd.com/altspanking.html Now the words from an adult with ADHD: You cannot spank ADHD out of someone,  It just doesn’t work that way. Education is the key to a better living for all of you. I guess a lot of ADHD adults in this NG would like to hurt Mark reeeaaal bad.  Mostly because bad memories of people like your dumbass hubby.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Never posted here before but I need some assist, or even just some validation that my problem is not just mine. Before we get to the real issue. Some history. I am 37 and have an 11 year old son who is ADHD. We have struggled since birth to be patient with one another and try to handle things best we can. His grades in school are so so and only slightly improved by the Adderal he takes now, 30mg XR On top of this, he seems to have an eating disorder, Dallas hides food and eats it at night and such. Of course being ADHD, he often leaves the dishes hidden (closet, under dresser, top drawer etc) because he thinks at the time he will clean it up later and then of course later never comes. I was divorced in 96 and only recently remarried. I also have a 15 year old daughter. Adjusting has been extremely painful for my children to the new step father. Mark is a very controlling man and at 6ft 3 a very intimidating man. He also can be very fair and yet firm in his household rules. Don’t get me wrong, I love my husband and I am trying very hard to be understanding and patient and hopeful that he and Dallas work issues out between themselves. So many times I have had to stop myself from interfering in disputes and had to really keep my mouth shut. Last night we had an issue. One of my step children was here over the weekend and lost a game for her game system that she had brought, so logical thing to do is turn the house upside down and look for it. So in doing so, Mark went into Dallas room and of course he found a few things like some bowls/spoons and a used ziplock bag – evidence of Dallas eating in his room and hiding it. So he yells at him (which I don’t really approve of the name calling, I really think its ugly and ineffective) Then he goes and gets the paddle. Now, the paddle is not often used in our house and only when there has been a long discussion and the kids understand why they are being disciplined. So while Dallas was partially wedge between the dresser and bed on the floor, pulling stuff (junk and trash) out from under it, Mark was really angry and reached out with plenty of force and swatted Dallas on the backside and told him to "hurry up!" Dallas was already terrified by the whole ordeal and had no idea the swat was coming. And it was then I said "hey, enough" and intervened. Mark then got more angry and pushed past me out of the room and I followed him to the other room where we had words. I said do not strike my child in anger, you calm down first. And he got defensive and told me to handle it in exasperation. It was pretty loud and I stood my ground. One of the first times I have since our marriage when it comes to this sorta thing. I really felt like this was a suckerpunch and Dallas wasn’t prepared for it. Had it been handled differently, where Dallas was standing and knew what was coming after plenty of discussion I likely would have supported several licks as discipline. So, we had a very silent night after I went into the bedroom to go to bed, I spent some time with Dallas in his room going over (yet again) the rules of the house about food in the bedrooms and so forth. I have decided to take some material things away from him for punishment (his game system and stuff). I got up several times during the night with several trains of thought. I felt like I have let my son down and I am not defending him like I should. I am angry at Mark for his tactic and I am determined to stand my ground on this issue ("do not strike in anger") I am angry at Mark for not knowing more about Dallas, his issues and how to handle them better. Although I have offered tons of printed information to him about ADHD and some of the subsets of issues it can bring. So Mark calls me this morning on his way to work and says "I just want to know one thing, why are you mad at me?" And I restated the same things I had said lastnight, "Do not strike my son in anger, think it through first and I would have the same opinion if it were one of your children or any child for that matter" Until he hung up on me. I’m -done- At my wits end with all of this. I am very torn between defending my son and my stance on how to handle spankings and not interfering with the delicate development of my son’s relationship with his step father. Any comments or anything ? Susan

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Never posted here before but I need some assist, or even just some validation that my problem is not just mine. Before we get to the real issue. Some history. I am 37 and have an 11 year old son who is ADHD. We have struggled since birth to be patient with one another and try to handle things best we can. His grades in school are so so and only slightly improved by the Adderal he takes now, 30mg XR On top of this, he seems to have an eating disorder, Dallas hides food and eats it at night and such. Of course being ADHD, he often leaves the dishes hidden (closet, under dresser, top drawer etc) because he thinks at the time he will clean it up later and then of course later never comes. I was divorced in 96 and only recently remarried. I also have a 15 year old daughter. Adjusting has been extremely painful for my children to the new step father. Mark is a very controlling man and at 6ft 3 a very intimidating man. He also can be very fair and yet firm in his household rules. Don’t get me wrong, I love my husband and I am trying very hard to be understanding and patient and hopeful that he and Dallas work issues out between themselves. So many times I have had to stop myself from interfering in disputes and had to really keep my mouth shut. Last night we had an issue. One of my step children was here over the weekend and lost a game for her game system that she had brought, so logical thing to do is turn the house upside down and look for it. So in doing so, Mark went into Dallas room and of course he found a few things like some bowls/spoons and a used ziplock bag – evidence of Dallas eating in his room and hiding it. So he yells at him (which I don’t really approve of the name calling, I really think its ugly and ineffective) Then he goes and gets the paddle. Now, the paddle is not often used in our house and only when there has been a long discussion and the kids understand why they are being disciplined. So while Dallas was partially wedge between the dresser and bed on the floor, pulling stuff (junk and trash) out from under it, Mark was really angry and reached out with plenty of force and swatted Dallas on the backside and told him to "hurry up!" Dallas was already terrified by the whole ordeal and had no idea the swat was coming. And it was then I said "hey, enough" and intervened. Mark then got more angry and pushed past me out of the room and I followed him to the other room where we had words. I said do not strike my child in anger, you calm down first. And he got defensive and told me to handle it in exasperation. It was pretty loud and I stood my ground. One of the first times I have since our marriage when it comes to this sorta thing. I really felt like this was a suckerpunch and Dallas wasn’t prepared for it. Had it been handled differently, where Dallas was standing and knew what was coming after plenty of discussion I likely would have supported several licks as discipline. So, we had a very silent night after I went into the bedroom to go to bed, I spent some time with Dallas in his room going over (yet again) the rules of the house about food in the bedrooms and so forth. I have decided to take some material things away from him for punishment (his game system and stuff). I got up several times during the night with several trains of thought. I felt like I have let my son down and I am not defending him like I should. I am angry at Mark for his tactic and I am determined to stand my ground on this issue ("do not strike in anger") I am angry at Mark for not knowing more about Dallas, his issues and how to handle them better. Although I have offered tons of printed information to him about ADHD and some of the subsets of issues it can bring. So Mark calls me this morning on his way to work and says "I just want to know one thing, why are you mad at me?" And I restated the same things I had said lastnight, "Do not strike my son in anger, think it through first and I would have the same opinion if it were one of your children or any child for that matter" Until he hung up on me. I’m -done- At my wits end with all of this. I am very torn between defending my son and my stance on how to handle spankings and not interfering with the delicate development of my son’s relationship with his step father. Any comments or anything ?

Your son has ADHD, your husband has an anger management problem, and you’re caught in the middle. I recommend family counseling. You shouldn’t have to be the one to bear the whole burden; a neutral, sympathetic and trained third party ought to be able to help all of you learn to deal with each other in a more constructive way.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Never posted here before but I need some assist, or even just some validation that my problem is not just mine. Before we get to the real issue. Some history. I am 37 and have an 11 year old son who is ADHD. We have struggled since birth to be patient with one another and try to handle things best we can. His grades in school are so so and only slightly improved by the Adderal he takes now, 30mg XR On top of this, he seems to have an eating disorder, Dallas hides food and eats it at night and such. Of course being ADHD, he often leaves the dishes hidden (closet, under dresser, top drawer etc) because he thinks at the time he will clean it up later and then of course later never comes. I was divorced in 96 and only recently remarried. I also have a 15 year old daughter. Adjusting has been extremely painful for my children to the new step father. Mark is a very controlling man and at 6ft 3 a very intimidating man. He also can be very fair and yet firm in his household rules. Don’t get me wrong, I love my husband and I am trying very hard to be understanding and patient and hopeful that he and Dallas work issues out between themselves. So many times I have had to stop myself from interfering in disputes and had to really keep my mouth shut. Last night we had an issue. One of my step children was here over the weekend and lost a game for her game system that she had brought, so logical thing to do is turn the house upside down and look for it. So in doing so, Mark went into Dallas room and of course he found a few things like some bowls/spoons and a used ziplock bag – evidence of Dallas eating in his room and hiding it. So he yells at him (which I don’t really approve of the name calling, I really think its ugly and ineffective) Then he goes and gets the paddle. Now, the paddle is not often used in our house and only when there has been a long discussion and the kids understand why they are being disciplined. So while Dallas was partially wedge between the dresser and bed on the floor, pulling stuff (junk and trash) out from under it, Mark was really angry and reached out with plenty of force and swatted Dallas on the backside and told him to "hurry up!" Dallas was already terrified by the whole ordeal and had no idea the swat was coming. And it was then I said "hey, enough" and intervened. Mark then got more angry and pushed past me out of the room and I followed him to the other room where we had words. I said do not strike my child in anger, you calm down first. And he got defensive and told me to handle it in exasperation. It was pretty loud and I stood my ground. One of the first times I have since our marriage when it comes to this sorta thing. I really felt like this was a suckerpunch and Dallas wasn’t prepared for it. Had it been handled differently, where Dallas was standing and knew what was coming after plenty of discussion I likely would have supported several licks as discipline. So, we had a very silent night after I went into the bedroom to go to bed, I spent some time with Dallas in his room going over (yet again) the rules of the house about food in the bedrooms and so forth. I have decided to take some material things away from him for punishment (his game system and stuff). I got up several times during the night with several trains of thought. I felt like I have let my son down and I am not defending him like I should. I am angry at Mark for his tactic and I am determined to stand my ground on this issue ("do not strike in anger") I am angry at Mark for not knowing more about Dallas, his issues and how to handle them better. Although I have offered tons of printed information to him about ADHD and some of the subsets of issues it can bring. So Mark calls me this morning on his way to work and says "I just want to know one thing, why are you mad at me?" And I restated the same things I had said lastnight, "Do not strike my son in anger, think it through first and I would have the same opinion if it were one of your children or any child for that matter" Until he hung up on me. I’m -done- At my wits end with all of this. I am very torn between defending my son and my stance on how to handle spankings and not interfering with the delicate development of my son’s relationship with his step father. Any comments or anything ?

First, I don’t have any trouble with spanking per se, as long as it’s done promptly, consistently, and in proportion to the offense. That said, it doesn’t work particularly well with ADDers because sometimes we have trouble thinking far enough ahead to consider consequences. But, speaking as someone who has some experience of such matters in a different context, spanking, or performing any kind of corporal punishment, in violation of prior agreements is a very, very bad sign.  If he did it once and he’s remorseful, then maybe it was a fluke and won’t happen again. If he keeps doing it, and especially if his violations of your agreements get worse over time, then no matter how intense your feelings for him are (and it may be that the worse it gets the more intense those feelings get), then run like Hell. As far as "interfering with the developing relationship between your son and his stepfather", it sounds to me like somebody _needs_ to interfere. Susan

– –John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Response:

<< As far as "interfering with the developing relationship between your son and his stepfather", it sounds to me like somebody _needs_ to interfere. Not interfere; But yes, stop the abuse. _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So he yells at him (which I don’t really approve of the name calling, I really think its ugly and ineffective) Then he goes and gets the paddle. Now, the paddle is not often used in our house and only when there has been a long discussion and the kids understand why they are being disciplined. So while Dallas was partially wedge between the dresser and bed on the floor, pulling stuff (junk and trash) out from under it, Mark was really angry and reached out with plenty of force and swatted Dallas on the backside and told him to "hurry up!" Dallas was already terrified by the whole ordeal and had no idea the swat was coming. And it was then I said "hey, enough" and intervened. Mark then got more angry and pushed past me out of the room and I followed him to the other room where we had words. I said do not strike my child in anger, you calm down first. And he got defensive and told me to handle it in exasperation.

Wow, what a landmine to deal with. Observations based strictly on what you wrote, in rough order of concern (highest to lower): 1. A single swat doesn’t necessarily mean abusive. You don’t say whether a mark was left or not – if there was, a welt MAY be okay if it’s not too bad and fades within a half-hour or so, but a bruise WOULD be abusive, IMO. Your husband may have been going for noise and startlement to "motivate" rather than pain per se. 2. Name calling IS abusive and totally uncalled for. The labels either become self-fulfilling if hurled often enough or the child may become completely resistant and/or defensive to ANYthing being said in a potentially negative context to protect his ego from further damage – and ANY situation is likely to become negative if he’s verbally cowed enough. 3. Eating food at night instead of at normal hours – hmmm, my personal reaction would be to let it slide. Tell him a couple of times a week to get his dishes out of his room and make sure he does it then and there. Just the easing up on his "hiding" may allow him to recover normal eating patterns when he’s ready to. An ADHD child is almost always a passive-aggressive child eventually – if he gets it into his head that he wants to eat in his room, and doesn’t feel punishment is appropriate for such a small thing (especially if others do so), he’s going to keep sneaking and resenting. If he’s allowed to eat in his room openly, he has less cause to worry about his dishes and their discovery, and will likely feel freer to return them when prompted, especially if it’s presented as a privilege to be allowed to eat in his room. At my wits end with all of this. I am very torn between defending my son and my stance on how to handle spankings and not interfering with the delicate development of my son’s relationship with his step father.

Leaving aside whether spankings are even going to work with an ADHD child (they certainly didn’t for me), I think you and your husband need to sit down and agree on what "angry" is. The way you have written this gives the impression that he was striking without thought or care with a possibility of serious damage resulting, whereas he may have saw himself as expressing his frustration without feeling he lost control. If there was a single swat with no long-lasting damage, I would tend to go with his viewpoint – if he were truly angry and unthinking, I believe he would have got in several swats before you were able to interfere, and left some serious marks. Whether it’s "fair" to the boy to be swatted while unprepared is more difficult to judge. The threat of it could certainly be seen as a forced focus – he can’t get distracted by anything else but "do this or I might get swatted!". Again, if y’all *must* use corporal punishment, I would say that if swatting is called for, this would work "better" with the imminent threat right there than as a future punishment in reaction to not doing what he’s told. ADHDers don’t internalize future events positive or negative very well or at all. You wouldn’t be reinforcing a pattern of "he won’t do it until we are standing right there threatening," because that likely has and will continue to happen *anyway* using punishment as motivation. It would be more helpful in the long run to teach him how to regiment his time and follow-up on it, with enough rewards provided on a regular basis to reinforce motivation to do it until it hopefully becomes a habit – my understanding is that it generally *will* become a habit, but the sooner begun, the better, and it’s going to take years for it to become engrained. Hope this helps, and good luck! — Jon Quixote What is axiomatic frequently isn’t.

Response:

Follow this link: Spanking: Does It Work with ADHD Children? http://www.christianadhd.com/altspanking.html Now the words from an adult with ADHD: You cannot spank ADHD out of someone,  It just doesn’t work that way. Education is the key to a better living for all of you.

You also cannot spank behavioural problems out of a child: at most they’ll be replaced with different behavioural problems and a child who is frightened of a parent isn’t going to learn anything but fear from that parent. I guess a lot of ADHD adults in this NG would like to hurt Mark reeeaaal bad.  Mostly because bad memories of people like your dumbass hubby.

Well, I wouldn’t like to hurt him but would *really* like him to learn some patience and understanding. As one who developed anxiety as a child I’m all too aware of how debilitating it can be throughout life. For what it’s worth I broke up with an abusive partner for both my and my children’s sakes and now have a partner who does respect and understand my children’s issues. I’m not saying the OP should divorce but that I would not tolerate abusive behaviour towards my children, especially not over issues that they cannot control. If one of my children was hiding food and eating it secretly I’d want to find out *why* he was doing this: is he comfort eating when he’s feeling down and if so *why* is he feeling down? Is he eating enough during the day? Does he have problems sleeping if he’s eating at night? I’d definitely be talking to our doctor if one of my children developed behaviour that led to such family problems. Vashti

Response:

Last night we had an issue. One of my step children was here over the weekend and lost a game for her game system that she had brought, so logical thing to do is turn the house upside down and look for it. So in doing so, Mark went into Dallas room

The problem started here. Your son’s personal space was violated when one of the other kids screwed up. This was very unfair to him. Then he was subjected to humiliation in front of the other kids when he had simply been minding his own business. Your husband was a bully. It looks from your words like he thinks it is his God given right. Is he willing to change? Or are you going to have to chose between your son and your husband? _g

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Follow this link: Spanking: Does It Work with ADHD Children? http://www.christianadhd.com/altspanking.html Now the words from an adult with ADHD: You cannot spank ADHD out of someone,  It just doesn’t work that way. Education is the key to a better living for all of you. You also cannot spank behavioural problems out of a child: at most they’ll be replaced with different behavioural problems and a child who is frightened of a parent isn’t going to learn anything but fear from that parent.

Of course you can spank behavioral problems out of a child.  Or an adult for that matter.  Some of them anyway.  The key is not to try to do it through brutality but through immediacy.  When the kid is caught doing something he shouldn’t do, an immediate quick lick–doesn’t even have to be hard, just enough to make an unpleasant association between the action and the behavior–will suffice.  Any other action that makes such an association will do as well.  But only do it when he is caught in the act, not two hours or two days or two weeks later.  The idea is to create an involuntary aversion response to the action, not to induce him to reason that this action leads to punishment.  And if the punishment is not immediate then that won’t happen. To take an example from another context–if a dog chases cars, the way you train him out of it is to drive past the house and when he starts chasing spray him in the face with soapy water or something else that stings his eyes.  Do that several times and he won’t try to chase cars anymore. On the other hand, if you drive past the house, then two hours later yell at him and spray soapy water in his face he’s going to learn to run and hide every time he sees you coming. The response mechanism is fairly primitive and goes back a long way into vertebrate evolution–the same basic technique works with fish–put an electric catfish in a tank of snakeheads and the snakeheads very quickly learn that the catfish is not food.  And fish are _stupid_. There’s nothing magic about humans that makes us different and makes such a training approach ineffective. If however it’s applied in such a manner that the child doesn’t associate the spanking with any particular behavior then it is as you say–he learns to fear the parent and it becomes abuse. It does not appear that this "Mark" is applying spanking in a manner that is likely to achieve any kind of useful result–this business of having a long drawn out family debate first by itself removes the necessary immediacy. I guess a lot of ADHD adults in this NG would like to hurt Mark reeeaaal bad.  Mostly because bad memories of people like your dumbass hubby. Well, I wouldn’t like to hurt him but would *really* like him to learn some patience and understanding. As one who developed anxiety as a child I’m all too aware of how debilitating it can be throughout life. For what it’s worth I broke up with an abusive partner for both my and my children’s sakes and now have a partner who does respect and understand my children’s issues. I’m not saying the OP should divorce but that I would not tolerate abusive behaviour towards my children, especially not over issues that they cannot control.

Amen. If one of my children was hiding food and eating it secretly I’d want to find out *why* he was doing this: is he comfort eating when he’s feeling down and if so *why* is he feeling down? Is he eating enough during the day? Does he have problems sleeping if he’s eating at night? I’d definitely be talking to our doctor if one of my children developed behaviour that led to such family problems.

One does wonder why he’s hiding food. Vashti

– –John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Response:

I noticed from your post that you perhaps tend give your kid attention for bad behavior.   Attention tends to reinforce behavior.  For a better approach, see: http://cms.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20010901-000027.html The actual magazine article is even better. It is in Sept/Oct 2001 Psychology Today. The book "How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk." is good. Specific Behavior modification techniques have a good reputation for ADHD treatment. Unfortunately I am not sure of the best source for this.

Response:

[john] << Of course you can spank behavioral problems out of a child.  Or an adult for that matter.  Some of them anyway.  The key is not to try to do it through brutality but through immediacy.  When the kid is caught doing something he shouldn’t do, an immediate quick lick–doesn’t even have to be hard, just enough to make an unpleasant association between the action and the behavior–will suffice.   A lick? Sniff, sniff… _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A

Response:

me2 _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A

Response:

<<  would not tolerate abusive behaviour towards my children, especially not over issues that they cannot control.

Amen. Typo. _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A

Response:

<< The book "How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk." is good. …sounds good! _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A

Response:

Your son has ADHD, your husband has an anger management problem, and you’re caught in the middle. I recommend family counseling. You shouldn’t have to be the one to bear the whole burden; a neutral, sympathetic and trained third party ought to be able to help all of you learn to deal with each other in a more constructive way.

Anger management problem can be one of the signs of ADD in adults. And if your child has ADD it is almost certain that either you or his father do. Or both. Some folks are drawn to ADD behavious like a moth to light. COuld be your ex and current husband are both ADD.         Bob Kaplow      NAR # 18L       TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"                 To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:      http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf     www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org         We need to ensure that actions by our government uphold the         principles of a democratic society, accountable government and         international law, and that all decisions are taken in a manner         consistent with the Constitution.

Response:

I noticed from your post that you perhaps tend give your kid attention for bad behavior.   Attention tends to reinforce behavior.  For a better approach, see: http://cms.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20010901-000027.html The actual magazine article is even better. It is in Sept/Oct 2001 Psychology Today. The book "How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk." is good.

"How To Talk So Kids Will Listen…"  is a godsend.  This is the book that immediately changed my childrearing life from mostly frustrating to mostly rewarding.  It *really* works.  The techniques are easy, compassionate, and they’re explained with cartoon strips so are remarkably accessible and applicable immediately.  This is not one of those books that has a central theme that is expounded on ad nauseam to fill up 250 pages so they can call it a book.  There are no wasted words here.  It’s 100% useful advice from cover to cover.  Have I made it clear how much I love this book? –Patti

Response:

<< remarkably accessible and applicable immediately.  This is not one of those books that has a central theme that is expounded on ad nauseam to fill up 250 pages so they can call it a book.  There are no wasted words here.  It’s 100% useful advice from cover to cover.  Have I made it clear how much I love this book? –Patti   No, but thank you! _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A

Response:

Hi, Never posted here before but I need some assist, or even just some validation that my problem is not just mine. Before we get to the real issue. Some history. I am 37 and have an 11 year old son who is ADHD.

Okay, so you might have ADHD, as well. There’s a genetic component. Or, if you don’t, you might have had parents or siblings with it. That might mean that your new husband could have it, and you wouldn’t necessarily recognize it because it seems ‘normal’ to you. I mention this, because it’s important to consider these things, especially with the spanking incident you describe later. On top of this, he seems to have an eating disorder, Dallas hides food and eats it at night and such.

Food is stimulus; there are times when I’m eating because I want to be feeling/doing/tasting something, and I have a hard time enjoying my food, because I forget to take the time to taste it and chew it and savor it. So, it could be part of ADHD. It could also be that he gets hungry at night, because the Adderall suppresses his appetite during the day. The fact that he hides it worries me a bit, because when you have an eating disorder, you *do* tend to hide food. Some folks with eating disorders feel they can’t eat, at all, in front of another person. If you can, try to find out why he does this. You’ll have to read between the lines, of course; I don’t know any kid who answers "why do you do (x)?" in a useful manner. (Well, I’m sure some do, some times. But I can’t pull any examples out of my head right now.) Of course being ADHD, he often leaves the dishes hidden (closet, under dresser, top drawer etc) because he thinks at the time he will clean it up later and then of course later never comes. I was divorced in 96 and only recently remarried. I also have a 15 year old daughter. Adjusting has been extremely painful for my children to the new step father. Mark is a very controlling man and at 6ft 3 a very intimidating man. He also can be very fair and yet firm in his household rules. Don’t get me wrong, I love my husband and I am trying very hard to be understanding and patient and hopeful that he and Dallas work issues out between themselves. So many times I have had to stop myself from interfering in disputes and had to really keep my mouth shut.

Well… parents *must* present a unified front to the children. If one parent says or does it, the other parent supports it… even, sometimes, if it’s unfair. You don’t want your kids playing mom against dad. (If dad’s being unfair, and *dad* reverses himself, that’s okay. But mom can’t reverse him, and vice versa.) *BUT*… parents must be *able* to present a unified front. You shouldn’t have to stop yourself from interfering very often; you should both agree enough on enough of the basics. Last night we had an issue. One of my step children was here over the weekend and lost a game for her game system that she had brought, so logical thing to do is turn the house upside down and look for it. So in doing so, Mark went into Dallas room and of course he found a few things like some bowls/spoons and a used ziplock bag – evidence of Dallas eating in his room and hiding it. So he yells at him (which I don’t really approve of the name calling, I really think its ugly and ineffective)

For ADHD kids, it can be especially nasty… but again, since there’s a genetic component, parents of ADHD kids can’t always keep this in mind. Then he goes and gets the paddle. Now, the paddle is not often used in our house and only when there has been a long discussion and the kids understand why they are being disciplined. So while Dallas was partially wedge between the dresser and bed on the floor, pulling stuff (junk and trash) out from under it, Mark was really angry and reached out with plenty of force and swatted Dallas on the backside and told him to "hurry up!" Dallas was already terrified by the whole ordeal and had no idea the swat was coming. And it was then I said "hey, enough" and intervened. Mark then got more angry and pushed past me out of the room and I followed him to the other room where we had words. I said do not strike my child in anger, you calm down first. And he got defensive and told me to handle it in exasperation.

Well, I think you handled it correctly. Swatting a kid in that situation, especially swinging hard, is dangerous. Mind, I can’t quite picture the situation from what you’ve said, but it sounds like sudden movement on Dallas’ part could have hurt him or caused something else to go wrong. It was pretty loud and I stood my ground. One of the first times I have since our marriage when it comes to this sorta thing. I really felt like this was a suckerpunch and Dallas wasn’t prepared for it.

And you’re right. It was a suckerpunch. It sounds like Mark recognizes this. Had it been handled differently, where Dallas was standing and knew what was coming after plenty of discussion I likely would have supported several licks as discipline. So, we had a very silent night after I went into the bedroom to go to bed, I spent some time with Dallas in his room going over (yet again) the rules of the house about food in the bedrooms and so forth. I have decided to take some material things away from him for punishment (his game system and stuff).

Herm. I’m NOT a parent. I hate giving advice about things I know nothing about, other than from the other side. But, if I had a child with the same problem, I’d probably make him wash dishes by hand every time there were dishes in his room. (Not just his own dishes, either.) Every day that you find more dishes in his room, that’s another night on dishwashing duty. That’s a logical consequence that might stick better. But, again, not a parent, don’t listen to me if you don’t like what you hear. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I got up several times during the night with several trains of thought. I felt like I have let my son down and I am not defending him like I should. I am angry at Mark for his tactic and I am determined to stand my ground on this issue ("do not strike in anger") I am angry at Mark for not knowing more about Dallas, his issues and how to handle them better. Although I have offered tons of printed information to him about ADHD and some of the subsets of issues it can bring. So Mark calls me this morning on his way to work and says "I just want to know one thing, why are you mad at me?" And I restated the same things I had said lastnight, "Do not strike my son in anger, think it through first and I would have the same opinion if it were one of your children or any child for that matter" Until he hung up on me. I’m -done- At my wits end with all of this. I am very torn between defending my son and my stance on how to handle spankings and not interfering with the delicate development of my son’s relationship with his step father.

Well, defending your son is a good thing. Setting firm limits for them both is a good thing. Supporting your husband is a good thing, but it sounds like you and he have to come to some more agreements *before* things blow up. I think Mark is looking for some kind of validation… knowledge that this isn’t something that’s going to be held over his head forever and a day. I think you should consider what the conditions for that are. No more paddling without prior discussion, and when the child knows what’s going to happen? Or no more paddling, ever? Since you need to be able to stand by each other, make sure you’re not compromising on something that you can’t feel okay about compromising on. If you’ve been against the paddle from day one, and it’s been bugging you every time it happens, now is the time to put a stop to that. Or, if the only issue is the ’striking in anger, and unexpectedly’, then Mark needs to understand that. It’s best when you never have to question what your husband is doing, because it’s pretty close to what you’d have done yourself. If you can’t, if you feel like you have to ‘defend’ your son constantly, there’s a serious problem. I saw at least one other poster mentioned family counselling; this might be a good idea. At the very least, couples counselling might be a good idea. Couples counselling isn’t just for marriages that are breaking up; it’s for any marriage that needs help working out the tricky details of being married. — Everything I needed to know in life I learned in Kindergarten.  Like: Beauty has a beginning, and an ending, but always lives beyond its span, in the hearts of many.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Never posted here before but I need some assist, or even just some validation that my problem is not just mine. Before we get to the real issue. Some history. I am 37 and have an 11 year old son who is ADHD. Okay, so you might have ADHD, as well. There’s a genetic component. Or, if you don’t, you might have had parents or siblings with it. That might mean that your new husband could have it, and you wouldn’t necessarily recognize it because it seems ‘normal’ to you. I mention this, because it’s important to consider these things, especially with the spanking incident you describe later. On top of this, he seems to have an eating disorder, Dallas hides food and eats it at night and such. Food is stimulus; there are times when I’m eating because I want to be feeling/doing/tasting something, and I have a hard time enjoying my food, because I forget to take the time to taste it and chew it and savor it. So, it could be part of ADHD. It could also be that he gets hungry at night, because the Adderall suppresses his appetite during the day. The fact that he hides it worries me a bit, because when you have an eating disorder, you *do* tend to hide food. Some folks with eating disorders feel they can’t eat, at all, in front of another person. If you can, try to find out why he does this. You’ll have to read between the lines, of course; I don’t know any kid who answers "why do you do (x)?" in a useful manner. (Well, I’m sure some do, some times. But I can’t pull any examples out of my head right now.) Of course being ADHD, he often leaves the dishes hidden (closet, under dresser, top drawer etc) because he thinks at the time he will clean it up later and then of course later never comes. I was divorced in 96 and only recently remarried. I also have a 15 year old daughter. Adjusting has been extremely painful for my children to the new step father. Mark is a very controlling man and at 6ft 3 a very intimidating man. He also can be very fair and yet firm in his household rules. Don’t get me wrong, I love my husband and I am trying very hard to be understanding and patient and hopeful that he and Dallas work issues out between themselves. So many times I have had to stop myself from interfering in disputes and had to really keep my mouth shut. Well… parents *must* present a unified front to the children. If one parent says or does it, the other parent supports it… even, sometimes, if it’s unfair. You don’t want your kids playing mom against dad. (If dad’s being unfair, and *dad* reverses himself, that’s okay. But mom can’t reverse him, and vice versa.) *BUT*… parents must be *able* to present a unified front. You shouldn’t have to stop yourself from interfering very often; you should both agree enough on enough of the basics. Last night we had an issue. One of my step children was here over the weekend and lost a game for her game system that she had brought, so logical thing to do is turn the house upside down and look for it. So in doing so, Mark went into Dallas room and of course he found a few things like some bowls/spoons and a used ziplock bag – evidence of Dallas eating in his room and hiding it. So he yells at him (which I don’t really approve of the name calling, I really think its ugly and ineffective) For ADHD kids, it can be especially nasty… but again, since there’s a genetic component, parents of ADHD kids can’t always keep this in mind. Then he goes and gets the paddle. Now, the paddle is not often used in our house and only when there has been a long discussion and the kids understand why they are being disciplined. So while Dallas was partially wedge between the dresser and bed on the floor, pulling stuff (junk and trash) out from under it, Mark was really angry and reached out with plenty of force and swatted Dallas on the backside and told him to "hurry up!" Dallas was already terrified by the whole ordeal and had no idea the swat was coming. And it was then I said "hey, enough" and intervened. Mark then got more angry and pushed past me out of the room and I followed him to the other room where we had words. I said do not strike my child in anger, you calm down first. And he got defensive and told me to handle it in exasperation. Well, I think you handled it correctly. Swatting a kid in that situation, especially swinging hard, is dangerous. Mind, I can’t quite picture the situation from what you’ve said, but it sounds like sudden movement on Dallas’ part could have hurt him or caused something else to go wrong. It was pretty loud and I stood my ground. One of the first times I have since our marriage when it comes to this sorta thing. I really felt like this was a suckerpunch and Dallas wasn’t prepared for it. And you’re right. It was a suckerpunch. It sounds like Mark recognizes this. Had it been handled differently, where Dallas was standing and knew what was coming after plenty of discussion I likely would have supported several licks as discipline. So, we had a very silent night after I went into the bedroom to go to bed, I spent some time with Dallas in his room going over (yet again) the rules of the house about food in the bedrooms and so forth. I have decided to take some material things away from him for punishment (his game system and stuff). Herm. I’m NOT a parent. I hate giving advice about things I know nothing about, other than from the other side. But, if I had a child with the same problem, I’d probably make him wash dishes by hand every time there were dishes in his room. (Not just his own dishes, either.) Every day that you find more dishes in his room, that’s another night on dishwashing duty. That’s a logical consequence that might stick better. But, again, not a parent, don’t listen to me if you don’t like what you hear. I got up several times during the night with several trains of thought. I felt like I have let my son down and I am not defending him like I should. I am angry at Mark for his tactic and I am determined to stand my ground on this issue ("do not strike in anger") I am angry at Mark for not knowing more about Dallas, his issues and how to handle them better. Although I have offered tons of printed information to him about ADHD and some of the subsets of issues it can bring. So Mark calls me this morning on his way to work and says "I just want to know one thing, why are you mad at me?" And I restated the same things I had said lastnight, "Do not strike my son in anger, think it through first and I would have the same opinion if it were one of your children or any child for that matter" Until he hung up on me. I’m -done- At my wits end with all of this. I am very torn between defending my son and my stance on how to handle spankings and not interfering with the delicate development of my son’s relationship with his step father. Well, defending your son is a good thing. Setting firm limits for them both is a good thing. Supporting your husband is a good thing, but it sounds like you and he have to come to some more agreements *before* things blow up. I think Mark is looking for some kind of validation… knowledge that this isn’t something that’s going to be held over his head forever and a day. I think you should consider what the conditions for that are. No more paddling without prior discussion, and when the child knows what’s going to happen? Or no more paddling, ever? Since you need to be able to stand by each other, make sure you’re not compromising on something that you can’t feel okay about compromising on. If you’ve been against the paddle from day one, and it’s been bugging you every time it happens, now is the time to put a stop to that. Or, if the only issue is the ’striking in anger, and unexpectedly’, then Mark needs to understand that. It’s best when you never have to question what your husband is doing, because it’s pretty close to what you’d have done yourself. If you can’t, if you feel like you have to ‘defend’ your son constantly, there’s a serious problem. I saw at least one other poster mentioned family counselling; this might be a good idea. At the very least, couples counselling might be a good idea. Couples counselling isn’t just for marriages that are breaking up; it’s for any marriage that needs help working out the tricky details of being married. — Everything I needed to know in life I learned in Kindergarten.  Like: Beauty has a beginning, and an ending, but always lives beyond its span, in the hearts of many.

Thanks for all the responses yall. Susan

Response:

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Focalin contraindicated in tourettes

Question:

"Randall Bart" <Barti…@att.spam.net> wrote in message

news:brn8p0hif4sk6rct0aj2jrha2nji026q5o@4ax.com… > ‘Twas Thu, 11 Nov 2004 07:15:15 GMT when all alt.support.tourette stood in > awe as "Pablo" <n…@yes.com> uttered: >>> It’s for reasons like this that you almost tied for Kook of the Month on >>> AUK, >>> even without a single person from ast contributing to your vote tally. >>On the contrary, I voted for Linda.  She probably thinks I am disappointed >>in the results, but I’m not.  I know that if she keeps disrupting >>newsgroups, she will again be nominated.  I figure she will eventually >>win. > It’s an honor just to be nominated.

This is correct.  Moreover, being inducted into the Order of the Holey Sock Puppet has sealed her fame. Pablo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > RB |  

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My adult ADHD treatment so far, OCD, and Adderall XR dose questions (long)

Question:

Dear group, I’m a 39 year old male who was finally diagnosed with ADHD earlier this year. It’s been something of a rebirth for me as a writer, since treatment — like the little "no" voice quieted to a whisper, and apart from the struggling artist life I live (I am published, books and newspaper and magazine stories, etc.), I have never felt better and more hopeful as when I began my treatment on Ritalin first. Stopped that after a few weeks because I lost too much weight, and had what’s called hyperactive gag reflex — this unpleasant problem of just, well, gagging when I talked too much, at the most embarrassing times, or even just standing in line at the post office. My doc figured I could not handle stimulant treatment (which saddened me, since it was otherwise working beautifully, helping me focus, write, prioritize and read for hours at a stretch…and because of those daily good things, my anxiety and depression were all but gone, and I felt less compelled to drink a lot, which I did lots of to sort of squelch the noise and boredom every night…). Wellbutrin didn’t work. As the dose went past 150 I’d get terrible teeth chattering, neck lockups, and other bad things. I wanted to go to stimulant treatment again since it had worked so well, and my doctor agreed. We stepped off Wellbutrin, and switched to Adderall. Very nice results, starting with a mere 2.5 mgs a day and working up to about 20 mgs. Some of the gagging came back, but otherwise, it was mostly okay. Since I was paying for the medication out of pocket and it was costing more than $125 per month, my doc figured it would be both cost effective and better for me overall to switch to once a day Adderall XR, 25 mgs. I like taking it only once a day, without having to decide later in the afternoon like I did with Adderall whether or not to take a final dose (sometimes I think because the earlier dose/s were wearing off, my "old" self would say nah, don’t, and I’d return to bad behaviors…). Adderall XR wasn’t exactly easy to adjust to, at first. The first "wave" of feeling in the morning was so white-hot it was almost like being in a trance. And the sleep problems at first were bad. But my attitude was good, and even as I lay in bed at 3 AM still not asleep I figured it will balance. And three weeks later, it mostly has. No gagging. I can work out and run without feeling bad. I am hungrier than I was on either Ritalin or Adderall regular. I eat in the late morning or early afternoon, and at night I eat a full dinner, and if I’m awake for a while I become ravenous and will make eggs and toast or eat a sandwich, etc. So the combination of working out and eating well again, I am building up and feeling pretty good. Two nights ago I couldn’t fall to sleep till three, and when I woke at 8 (I set my alarm to take my medication, even if I sometimes go back to sleep for another hour), and then wasn’t tired so I just got up, took the dog out for his usual business, and went about my day, writing a few small articles I had to get out of the way, etc. Now here’s where the changes I’m wondering about really come to light… I wasn’t tired all day, and as night came around I found myself (I’ve noticed this recently) drinking again, or more than I was when I didn’t crave it. It could be in part the often stressful day to day life I have, not stressed like normal working people, but rather being a writer who is always struggling to pay rent. Or maybe, I’m beginning to wonder, if my dose isn’t enough? A few things: First, once the sort of euphoric feeling of the first few weeks on any of the stimulant medications wears off, it is my understanding that a correctly treated ADHD patient sort of balances out, and whatever those first few weeks were, of the easy, nonstop do-the-right-thing/complete-tasks feeling, well, that that changes, and what you feel instead is clarity and focus in whatever you are working on: Even if you’re not working on what, a few weeks before, was the right thing, the thing you knew you should be working on, and not some other distraction. That’s been happening to me a lot lately. I’ll spend all morning searching for the latest Palm handheld updates or things I think I need for my computer, that I don’t really need, what I really need is to write first, do other things later, because that way I feel better about myself, and am nicer to be around and don’t resent myself and others later in the day, when I’ve failed to write as I should be writing. My doc said ideally the right treatment for me is to not be so over-stimulated that I’m just performing because of that, but rather to have clear focus *and* take responsibility for my actions, to recognize when I’m being distracted — which I definitely can do, I know when I am distracting myself — and say, okay, you decide, are you going to do that, or do what you know you should (and ultimately) want to do? I think he’s right, but at the same time, I’d like to know what others think or have experienced. I saw a post by a man who said he takes 60 mgs of Adderall XR a day. I was under the impression that the max was 30 mgs a day. Or maybe I thought that only because that’s the largest capsule dose available. What have others experienced with Adderall XR? How long did it take to feel "natural" and not over-stimulated, and at that point, did you focus clearly or were you falling back to old habits — for me, I think I’d classify them as OCD, as my mom is classified and treated — that you know are not good for you? Did your doctor increase your dosage to help you return to the prior, more focused/prioritizing person like I felt I was in the first two weeks of treatment? Why, for instance, am I writing this posting instead of working on my script? Maybe I am a little blocked in the script. But fifteen years of writing and a few books under my belt, I know that the only way to break through it is to burst it out in outline or narrative form, just to unclog the block and get the ideas out there. Plus going for a run helps (which I’ll do later). I think I’m writing this now because I’m looking for thoughts and help on this. I promised myself after I click send I’ll go right into the script, and I shall. I didn’t wake until 11 AM today, which makes me feel automatically defeated, because I didn’t go to sleep till 3 AM. I woke at 8, took my med, then slept more till 11. Did any of you devise a system to maybe force yourself to wake even after only four hours of sleep, for a few days if necessary, if only to get your system back on a normal sleep track? (Ideally I’d like to go to sleep by midnight.) Were others of you OCD or sort of self destructive (be it addiction to alcohol, drugs, online chat, porn, food, anything…) before ADHD treatment with stimulants, and did those things ease or subside? Did they stay gone or come back? I’m at once very focused on whatever I’m doing, but no longer doing what I should necessarily be doing. And I seem to be more intensely OCD, but I’m not positive, and wonder if others experienced anything like this? And if so, was the medication increased and did it help it or just eventually bring about the same leveling off and returning to some of the bad behaviors, while nevertheless helping with focus, even if on the wrong things? Lastly, it’s my personal belief that a life as a remarkable success in some ways, and a total underachiever in others, well, that you can’t just take a pill to undo all of that history of emotion, experience, etc. My instinct tells me that while those first few bright-white weeks of seeming totally "well" were great, the fact is is I still must consider and cope with and understand my past, my upbringing, my relationships with my family, friends, loves past (but none present). One thing I can say for sure, despite what I feel have been setbacks in my doing the right thing day to day, is this: The almost constant anxiety and depression I’ve felt my whole life are all but gone. Really, really gone. Sure I can get sad at news from a dear friend that her father has undergone emergency brain surgery, or that a story I turned in was returned to me by my editor with suggestion of a total rewrite, or we kill the story (honestly, my heart wasn’t in the piece, and I have learned never say yes to an article that you don’t feel or care about, I even knew as I raced to make deadline the other day that what I was writing was flat and uninteresting, so lesson learned there…) But I don’t feel hopeless or defeated or as anxious like I used to. Yes, some anxiety, but no different than, I expect, a "normal" person or fellow writer feels when the pressure’s on to pay the rent and finish something you hope will sell and turn around the struggling life you’ve lived for years. My treatment has made me more hopeful and confident about my writing than ever before, and for that I am grateful. So any thoughts or shared experiences you folks may have in reply to this are appreciated, specifically from adults being treated with Adderall XR, or with other stimulant medications. Best, J

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Atomoxetine: The First Non-Stimulant Treatment for AD/HD

Question:

This may have already been discussed, but a new ADHD treatment has been approved by the FDA and will be available in January. This is a non-stimulant treatment so abuse potential is low.It’snot the first non-stimulant treatment, but it is the first non-stimulant treatment specifically designed for ADHD. http://www.additudemag.com/medical.asp?DEPT_NO=505&SUB_NO=9 Dave

Response:

This may have already been discussed, but a new ADHD treatment has been approved by the FDA and will be available in January. This is a non-stimulant treatment so abuse potential is low.It’snot the first non-stimulant treatment, but it is the first non-stimulant treatment specifically designed for ADHD. http://www.additudemag.com/medical.asp?DEPT_NO=505&SUB_NO=9

Can anyone tell me when Concerta XL was FDA approved? It’s just that it only made UK approval in January 2002, so I’d like to try and gauge the time lag between US and UK, with regard to when we might therefore expect UK approval for Atomoxetine. Cheers, — Grymma AFPOh Goddess Of Hangovers; B.F.(use ‘reply to’) "A synonym is a word you use when you can’t spell the word you first  thought of." – Burt Bacharach

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This may have already been discussed, but a new ADHD treatment has been approved by the FDA and will be available in January. This is a non-stimulant treatment so abuse potential is low.It’snot the first non-stimulant treatment, but it is the first non-stimulant treatment specifically designed for ADHD. http://www.additudemag.com/medical.asp?DEPT_NO=505&SUB_NO=9 Can anyone tell me when Concerta XL was FDA approved? It’s just that it only made UK approval in January 2002, so I’d like to try and gauge the time lag between US and UK, with regard to when we might therefore expect UK approval for Atomoxetine.

I do not think that it would work the same for Atomoxetine. Concerta was methylphenidate with a new means of delivery. Atomoxetine has not been on the market and it is an entirely new medication. I checked www.rxlist.com and, while it is listed, there is no information. I suspect that it will take some time for you folks to catch up. However, check with the manufacturer, maybe they know something.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone tell me when Concerta XL was FDA approved? It’s just that it only made UK approval in January 2002, so I’d like to try and gauge the time lag between US and UK, with regard to when we might therefore expect UK approval for Atomoxetine. I do not think that it would work the same for Atomoxetine. Concerta was methylphenidate with a new means of delivery. Atomoxetine has not been on the market and it is an entirely new medication. I checked www.rxlist.com and, while it is listed, there is no information. I suspect that it will take some time for you folks to catch up. However, check with the manufacturer, maybe they know something.

Oh bum – I imagine UK/european requirements will be a whole load of testing here first, rather than just being a simple licence issue ( Ah well, cheers Mark! It was quite funny though, yesterday, seeing my daughters pdoc, and knowing more about this new med than she did, you know, little things like even just the *name* of it… she should get to a computer more often *grin* Cheers, — Grymma AFPOh Goddess Of Hangovers; B.F.(use ‘reply to’) AFPianc

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Forgot to refill meds again…and update(long)

Question:

Generally it looks like things are heading the right way with my anxiety, and full blown PAs have been absent for a while now.

Vashti, it is so good to hear you sounding this positive! Congrats on hanging in there…. Although I’m still working on the outdoors thing, with therapy and some baby steps I *shall* confront that.

Yep… you will. One little step at a time, *when* you are ready. You’ve all been amazing: ASAP has been my therapy throughout the past 10 or so months….Thank you!!! :

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Getting my daughter evaluated part II

Question:

Just my opinion of course, but I think Dragongreeneyes just gave some of the best, good old, common sense, type advise that I’ve heard in awhile. She’s absolutely correct about "remember that you know your child best" and that ultimately it’s you who are in charge.  I don’t think doctors set out to intimidate  but I agree that it happens way to frequently. cheryl

Most people think that doctors are supposed to know everything about everything, so they will leave decisions up to the doctors.  IMO, this is where the perceived intimidation comes into play.  OTOH, it has been my experience that doctors appreciate having patients with whom they can discuss the issues of proper patient care. And then, of course, there are the doctors with whom the patients and the nurses have to go round and round to insure the best care for the patient. — Light, Love, & Laughter, Kitten, Goddess of Mischief "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." – Anonymous "Just for today, do not worry;  Just for today, do not anger; Earn your living honestly; Honor your parents, teachers and elders; Show gratitude for every living thing."- Dr. Mikao Usui Before you buy.

Response:

The one experience I listed, on of many, we, the doctor and I, parted company because he said if I would not o along with his idea of treatment I would have to find another doctor, so I did, a shame really over all I liked him

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Most people think that doctors are supposed to know everything about everything, so they will leave decisions up to the doctors.  IMO, this is where the perceived intimidation comes into play.  OTOH, it has been my experience that doctors appreciate having patients with whom they can discuss the issues of proper patient care. And then, of course, there are the doctors with whom the patients and the nurses have to go round and round to insure the best care for the patient. — Light, Love, & Laughter, Kitten, Goddess of Mischief "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." – Anonymous "Just for today, do not worry;  Just for today, do not anger; Earn your living honestly; Honor your parents, teachers and elders; Show gratitude for every living thing."- Dr. Mikao Usui Before you buy.

Response:

The one experience I listed, on of many, we, the doctor and I, parted company because he said if I would not o along with his idea of treatment I would have to find another doctor, so I did, a shame really over all I liked him

I’ve a habit of staying away from doctors like that.  Mom, on the other hand, goes toe-to-toe with them.  But she can get away with it.  She’s got "most favored nurse" status. — Light, Love, & Laughter, Kitten, Goddess of Mischief "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." – Anonymous "Just for today, do not worry;  Just for today, do not anger; Earn your living honestly; Honor your parents, teachers and elders; Show gratitude for every living thing."- Dr. Mikao Usui Before you buy.

Response:

Thanks for the info. I appreciate it especially your experiences with the meds. Let’s see how things go for my daughter. — Norma There’s a place I like to hide, A doorway that I run through in the night…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Depends on when they have an appointment open, then you take her in, you sit in the office for about an hour, then they call you in and they basically tell you what they did what they think but that the official data will have to be reviewed and you get your diagnosis in about a week, or at least that is how it happened with me, twice, then you take it back to your regular doctor and start playing "medication-go-round, fight, tooth and nail, do your own research, my daughter had a problem with Cylert, she started exhibiting some obsessive compulsive behaviors, so they wanted to increase the med, start "family counciling," and give her a bunch of other stuff, anti-depressants, but I said no, my daughter was not a behavior problem, we were a happy fairly welladjusted family, father, mother sibs, no drinking, no drugs, what did we need counseling for?, He wanted to send her to a "special School"  that I had never heard of and could not find anyone who had heard of it either even thou it had been in existence for 15yrs.  My husband was more then willing to trust the doctors, I wasn’t remember you know your child best.  Doctors our a servant, they serve us for a price. Never forget that you are in charge.  Don’t let them intimidate you.  That was at eight, Sara is now 13.  Her meds changed for the first time in the last year, she went from taking 5mg Dexedrine 3times a day about three hours apart, to Adderall 20mg once a day.  It ahs been working well, except that she is not as "happy" as she was, not depressed, just calm.  I am hoping that this school year will be much better then last, truly the Worst year she has ever had since she started school.  We work on behavior modification mostly and leave her alone about other stuff, writing them off as personality and simply not stressing, although I have notice a bit more cussing (very opinionated about certain people lol) on the Aderall then

off.

Response:

Yes she did. I agree. I don’t get too intimidated by doctors though. Usually they might get a bit annoyed by me. I usually question the doctors. I figure if they have a good reason then they should convince me. If it’s just a preference that should become clear too. You should see me yesterday. After the exam (before they did the referall) the told me they had found a slight ear infection. Well since nobody was saying much, I told them. I understand about  the ear infection but I don’t think it’s causing her behavior because she’s always been like this (she just got the infection, went swimming last Friday). Man yesterday at the doctor’s was a bit of a pain. Doctor was hurried. I had to almost push her to answer questions (but I did). She wasn’t happy but I don’t care because my daughter’s health is important. I thought I’d share a little what happened. I tried to be pleasant though because I do realize the doctor might have been tired (near the end of the workday and such). — Norma There’s a place I like to hide, A doorway that I run through in the night…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just my opinion of course, but I think Dragongreeneyes just gave some of the best, good old, common sense, type advise that I’ve heard in awhile. She’s absolutely correct about "remember that you know your child best" and that ultimately it’s you who are in charge.  I don’t think doctors set out to intimidate  but I agree that it happens way to frequently. cheryl

Response:

Especially when they are having a busy day and they are grouchy at the end of the day. I still think the doctor should have been a little bit more proffesional but at the same time am a little understanding. — Norma There’s a place I like to hide, A doorway that I run through in the night… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And then, of course, there are the doctors with whom the patients and the nurses have to go round and round to insure the best care for the patient. — Light, Love, & Laughter, Kitten, Goddess of Mischief "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." – Anonymous "Just for today, do not worry;  Just for today, do not anger; Earn your living honestly; Honor your parents, teachers and elders; Show gratitude for every living thing."- Dr. Mikao Usui Before you buy.

Response:

I’m not sure where this doctor stands but at least she gave me the referral. I heard that UCI is usually where kids and adults go for ADHD treatment in my area. So at least I know it will turn out. I’m just glad insurance covers it  :) — Norma There’s a place I like to hide, A doorway that I run through in the night…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The one experience I listed, on of many, we, the doctor and I, parted company because he said if I would not o along with his idea of treatment I would have to find another doctor, so I did, a shame really over all I liked him Most people think that doctors are supposed to know everything about everything, so they will leave decisions up to the doctors.  IMO, this is where the perceived intimidation comes into play.  OTOH, it has been my experience that doctors appreciate having patients with whom they can discuss the issues of proper patient care. And then, of course, there are the doctors with whom the patients and the nurses have to go round and round to insure the best care for the patient. — Light, Love, & Laughter, Kitten, Goddess of Mischief "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." – Anonymous "Just for today, do not worry;  Just for today, do not anger; Earn your living honestly; Honor your parents, teachers and elders; Show gratitude for every living thing."- Dr. Mikao Usui Before you buy.

Response:

OTOH perhaps persistent patients will help doctors overcome prejudices and finally accept that their beliefs may be wrong. I like to think that way — Norma There’s a place I like to hide, A doorway that I run through in the night…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The one experience I listed, on of many, we, the doctor and I, parted company because he said if I would not o along with his idea of treatment I would have to find another doctor, so I did, a shame really over all I liked him I’ve a habit of staying away from doctors like that.  Mom, on the other hand, goes toe-to-toe with them.  But she can get away with it.  She’s got "most favored nurse" status. — Light, Love, & Laughter, Kitten, Goddess of Mischief "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." – Anonymous "Just for today, do not worry;  Just for today, do not anger; Earn your living honestly; Honor your parents, teachers and elders; Show gratitude for every living thing."- Dr. Mikao Usui Before you buy.

Response:

goddess said: "Most people think that doctors are supposed to know everything about everything, so they will leave decisions up to the doctors.  " "Most" people? I don’t know any of them. Undoubtedly there are "some" like that, but I don’t think it’s fair to characterize most who use mainstream medication as gullible.

Response:

Just my opinion of course, but I think Dragongreeneyes just gave some of the best, good old, common sense, type advise that I’ve heard in awhile.  She’s absolutely correct about "remember that you know your child best" and that ultimately it’s you who are in charge.  I don’t think doctors set out to intimidate  but I agree that it happens way to frequently. cheryl "DON’T WORRY THAT YOUR KIDS AREN’T LISTENING TO YOU. WORRY THAT THEY ARE ALWAYS WATCHING YOU."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Depends on when they have an appointment open, then you take her in, you sit in the office for about an hour, then they call you in and they basically tell you what they did what they think but that the official data will have to be reviewed and you get your diagnosis in about a week, or at least that is how it happened with me, twice, then you take it back to your regular doctor and start playing "medication-go-round, fight, tooth and nail, do your own research, my daughter had a problem with Cylert, she started exhibiting some obsessive compulsive behaviors, so they wanted to increase the med, start "family counciling," and give her a bunch of other stuff, anti-depressants, but I said no, my daughter was not a behavior problem, we were a happy fairly welladjusted family, father, mother sibs, no drinking, no drugs, what did we need counseling for?, He wanted to send her to a "special School"  that I had never heard of and could not find anyone who had heard of it either even thou it had been in existence for 15yrs.  My husband was more then willing to trust the doctors, I wasn’t remember you know your child best.  Doctors our a servant, they serve us for a price. Never forget that you are in charge.  Don’t let them intimidate you.  That was at eight, Sara is now 13.  Her meds changed for the first time in the last year, she went from taking 5mg Dexedrine 3times a day about three hours apart, to Adderall 20mg once a day.  It ahs been working well, except that she is not as "happy" as she was, not depressed, just calm.  I am hoping that this school year will be much better then last, truly the Worst year she has ever had since she started school.  We work on behavior modification mostly and leave her alone about other stuff, writing them off as personality and simply not stressing, although I have notice a bit more cussing (very opinionated about certain people lol) on the Aderall then off. Well now I have a referral to take her to UCI Irvine to have her checked out by a Neurologist. I gave them a note written by the teacher about her behavior in class. How long does it take to get a child evaluated and what do I expect there? Thanks. — Norma There’s a place I like to hide, A doorway that I run through in the night…

Response:

Well now I have a referral to take her to UCI Irvine to have her checked out by a Neurologist. I gave them a note written by the teacher about her behavior in class. How long does it take to get a child evaluated and what do I expect there? Thanks. — Norma There’s a place I like to hide, A doorway that I run through in the night…

Response:

Depends on when they have an appointment open, then you take her in, you sit in the office for about an hour, then they call you in and they basically tell you what they did what they think but that the official data will have to be reviewed and you get your diagnosis in about a week, or at least that is how it happened with me, twice, then you take it back to your regular doctor and start playing "medication-go-round, fight, tooth and nail, do your own research, my daughter had a problem with Cylert, she started exhibiting some obsessive compulsive behaviors, so they wanted to increase the med, start "family counciling," and give her a bunch of other stuff, anti-depressants, but I said no, my daughter was not a behavior problem, we were a happy fairly welladjusted family, father, mother sibs, no drinking, no drugs, what did we need counseling for?, He wanted to send her to a "special School"  that I had never heard of and could not find anyone who had heard of it either even thou it had been in existence for 15yrs.  My husband was more then willing to trust the doctors, I wasn’t remember you know your child best.  Doctors our a servant, they serve us for a price. Never forget that you are in charge.  Don’t let them intimidate you.  That was at eight, Sara is now 13.  Her meds changed for the first time in the last year, she went from taking 5mg Dexedrine 3times a day about three hours apart, to Adderall 20mg once a day.  It ahs been working well, except that she is not as "happy" as she was, not depressed, just calm.  I am hoping that this school year will be much better then last, truly the Worst year she has ever had since she started school.  We work on behavior modification mostly and leave her alone about other stuff, writing them off as personality and simply not stressing, although I have notice a bit more cussing (very opinionated about certain people lol) on the Aderall then off.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well now I have a referral to take her to UCI Irvine to have her checked out by a Neurologist. I gave them a note written by the teacher about her behavior in class. How long does it take to get a child evaluated and what do I expect there? Thanks. — Norma There’s a place I like to hide, A doorway that I run through in the night…

Response:

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Drug companies confusing you?

Question:

In article <20000510150253.10715.00001…@ng-fy1.aol.com>,   jb…@aol.comnospam (Jonathan Berent) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Drug Manufacturers Attempt To Confuse You by >     Making Social Anxiety A Medical Disorder > In order for an individual with social anxiety or social phobia to "cure" or > resolve the problem, it is necessary to deal with the specific emotions of > embarrassment, humiliation, shame, and fear of rejection that have become > toxic. These emotions are at the root of self-esteem problems. These emotions, > and their related thought patterns, can trigger the physiology of panic which > can result in your behavioral "addiction to avoidance". While medication can > help calm a person’s mind, it does not affect a cure. The drug companies would > like you to believe that it does; thereby creating a dependence that often > reaches the point of diminishing returns.

Business must be bad, eh? I see that you sell biofeedback/neurofeedback for ADHD treatment. By any chance, do you know of a peer reviewed study that clearly documents that this treatment provides long term positive results? I have never found any. — Mark Probert Children can be cruel…unless adults teach them to be kind. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

Drug Manufacturers Attempt To Confuse You by     Making Social Anxiety A Medical Disorder In order for an individual with social anxiety or social phobia to "cure" or resolve the problem, it is necessary to deal with the specific emotions of embarrassment, humiliation, shame, and fear of rejection that have become toxic. These emotions are at the root of self-esteem problems. These emotions, and their related thought patterns, can trigger the physiology of panic which can result in your behavioral "addiction to avoidance". While medication can help calm a person’s mind, it does not affect a cure. The drug companies would like you to believe that it does; thereby creating a dependence that often reaches the point of diminishing returns. http://www.social-anxiety.com

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Am I Naive or what?

Question:

OH I feel so much better I couldn’t figure out what I wasn’t getting.   I’m glad we cleared that up. thanks for being so honest. apology and explanation readily accepted end of thread.  <g – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nessa said: " Well isn’t THAT special. No not really. And I am sorry if you think that because I have done the best I can to take care of myself that I have the idea that I am ’special’ and entitled to special treatment.  " I didn’t mean YOU, Nessa. It was a sarcastic comment about the insurance company’s convoluted thinking: they won’t pay for your testing, but if YOU pay for the testing, they will pay for the meds? I think Kathleen Nadeau is wonderful… and I think it’s wonderful that you are able to work with her. I’m glad you can afford it but I don’t think that excuses the insurance company’s ludicrous stance on this. I feel very badly about this. I did not intend to hurt you in any way. "What did I do to provoke you?   " You didn’t. The target was the insurance company. I’m sorry that wasn’t more clear. BTW if your measured response to this is any indication, your supervisor is nuts not to promote you. "They didn’t refuse to diagnosis it.  They refused to pay for the doctors I chose to go to out of plan." I’m sorry; I misunderstood that. And usually I try very hard not to read inbetween the lines. I think it’s a bad plan most times, and if I did that, I apologize again. I am sorry that you had to end your post with such a hurtful slam. I am going to ask you to understand that you DID misunderstand the direction of my comment. It was NOT directed at you. Modems have no sarcasm meter… I am very sorry if my words hurt me. That was not my intent at all.

– Nessa — What if the hokey Pokey is really what it’s all about

Response:

writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I just found out tonight that my insurance excludes diagnosis and/or treatment of ADD/ADHD!  I knew my psychiatrist wasn’t on my preferred physician’s network, but he referred me back to my pediatrician for follow-up, who is, and I was still denied coverage for it.  Thank God I have a medical savings account type policy, so at least I can deduct it from that, but all of the office visits we are required to do won’t even be applied to our deductible with the pediatrician.  She put it down as a "failure to thrive" code, and actually worded it as a "weigh in visit."  I’m going to talk to her next time about if there is any other way we can word it so it will at least apply to the deductible. For some reason the 3 visits to the psychiatrist, even tho not covered, were applied to my deductible.  Interestingly, the prescriptions are discounted some, according to the agreement between my pharmacy and the insurance company. How can they justify this?  I asked, and the coverage/claims person said it was an executive decion and she had no information on it.  She suggested I talk to my agent for different lifestyle policies I could look at sold by same company.

They may be able to justify this because of the state laws concerning insurance. However, from what you post, I woud STRONGLY urge you to consider contacting your state’s insurance regulators and discussing this with them. If you have the statement in writing, i.e., that they do not cover ADHD, the regulators may inquire of the insurance comapny. You may want to contact them yourself and ask why trhey deny ADHD wehn XXX and YYY are covered. If they answer, that answer may help the state regulators see what they ahve to do, or they may tell you that you are stuck with it. Personally, I do not see how they can get around covering ADHD if they cover any mental disease, or any clinically determined medical conditions, e.g. CFS or Fibromyalgia. Those, like ADHD have no physically testable manifestion. Write back and let us know. Mark Probert A vote for Pat Buchanan is a vote for America’s First Fuhrer!

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Nessa said: " Well isn’t THAT special. No not really. And I am sorry if you think that because I have done the best I can to take care of myself that I have the idea that I am ’special’ and entitled to special treatment.  " I didn’t mean YOU, Nessa. It was a sarcastic comment about the insurance company’s convoluted thinking: they won’t pay for your testing, but if YOU pay for the testing, they will pay for the meds? I think Kathleen Nadeau is wonderful… and I think it’s wonderful that you are able to work with her. I’m glad you can afford it but I don’t think that excuses the insurance company’s ludicrous stance on this. I feel very badly about this. I did not intend to hurt you in any way. "What did I do to provoke you?   " You didn’t. The target was the insurance company. I’m sorry that wasn’t more clear. BTW if your measured response to this is any indication, your supervisor is nuts not to promote you. "They didn’t refuse to diagnosis it.  They refused to pay for the doctors I chose to go to out of plan." I’m sorry; I misunderstood that. And usually I try very hard not to read inbetween the lines. I think it’s a bad plan most times, and if I did that, I apologize again. I am sorry that you had to end your post with such a hurtful slam. I am going to ask you to understand that you DID misunderstand the direction of my comment. It was NOT directed at you. Modems have no sarcasm meter… I am very sorry if my words hurt me. That was not my intent at all.

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I just found out tonight that my insurance excludes diagnosis and/or treatment of ADD/ADHD!  I knew my psychiatrist wasn’t on my preferred physician’s network, but he referred me back to my pediatrician for follow-up, who is, and I was still denied coverage for it.  Thank God I have a medical savings account type policy, so at least I can deduct it from that, but all of the office visits we are required to do won’t even be applied to our deductible with the pediatrician.  She put it down as a "failure to thrive" code, and actually worded it as a "weigh in visit."  I’m going to talk to her next time about if there is any other way we can word it so it will at least apply to the deductible. For some reason the 3 visits to the psychiatrist, even tho not covered, were applied to my deductible.  Interestingly, the prescriptions are discounted some, according to the agreement between my pharmacy and the insurance company. How can they justify this?  I asked, and the coverage/claims person said it was an executive decion and she had no information on it.  She suggested I talk to my agent for different lifestyle policies I could look at sold by same company.   — Colette

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I just found out tonight that my insurance excludes diagnosis and/or treatment of ADD/ADHD!

Collette,      Hoping I don’t offend, but these insurance companies are full of shit!  Is this a medical policy through an employer?  If so, diagnosis & treatment of ADD/ADHD falls under the jurisdiction of your mental health provider benefits! I’d suggest that you look over your policy as thoroughly as possible, & see if it includes mental health benefits.  If it does, & there’s no documentation specifying what’s covered & what isn’t, then you need to get on the horn & nag these people to send you, In Writing, a detailed list of included & excluded coverages.  It’s a pain in the rear, but unfortunately it’s what has to be done with these people: otherwise, thet’ll have you running in circles until you give up… & they win!  I’ve been first hearing & then dealing with insurance company double-speak since I was a teenager.  First rule of insurance companies – deny, deny, deny!  They’ll run you over if you let them…      I’ll talk more later… the hubbie just got home & I’m making him something to eat…

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Krysalys said: "I just found out tonight that my insurance excludes diagnosis and/or treatment of ADD/ADHD!

Collette,      Hoping I don’t offend, but these insurance companies are full of shit!  Is this a medical policy through an employer?  If so, diagnosis & treatment of ADD/ADHD falls under the jurisdiction of your mental health provider benefits! " Thank you, Krysalis! This person should write to her state insurance oversight board. Very often they overturn decisions made by insurance companies. It’s certainly not guaranteed, but it’s worth the time it takes to find an address and write a letter.

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writes: I just found out tonight that my insurance excludes diagnosis and/or treatment of ADD/ADHD!  

As a suggestion, you may be able to get help through the person in the company for whom you work who handles day-to-day business with the insurance company. A complaint from such a person will have more impact than one from an individual employee. You see, in the eyes of the insurance company, your employer is their customer, not you. Kevin P. O’Connor

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When I was in an HMO and went out of plan for my ADHD treatment (both with Kathleen and the neuropsych) although we tried to get the HMO to cover the costs of the visits they would not.  However, they did cover all the medications that were prescribed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just found out tonight that my insurance excludes diagnosis and/or treatment of ADD/ADHD!  I knew my psychiatrist wasn’t on my preferred physician’s network, but he referred me back to my pediatrician for follow-up, who is, and I was still denied coverage for it.  Thank God I have a medical savings account type policy, so at least I can deduct it from that, but all of the office visits we are required to do won’t even be applied to our deductible with the pediatrician.  She put it down as a "failure to thrive" code, and actually worded it as a "weigh in visit."  I’m going to talk to her next time about if there is any other way we can word it so it will at least apply to the deductible. For some reason the 3 visits to the psychiatrist, even tho not covered, were applied to my deductible.  Interestingly, the prescriptions are discounted some, according to the agreement between my pharmacy and the insurance company. How can they justify this?  I asked, and the coverage/claims person said it was an executive decion and she had no information on it.  She suggested I talk to my agent for different lifestyle policies I could look at sold by same company.   — Colette

– Nessa — does fuzzy logic tickle

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What "this person" are you referring to.  Me? — Colette

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Insurance companies ARE most arbitrary in what they choose to cover & deny.  AS someone has already recommended, you need to see the fine print on your employer’s specific contract.  And yes, they’re out to make a profit & keep your employer’s premiums as low as possible by covering as little as possible. I vividly recall discussing what was & was not covered by my insurance for fertility treatments with my doctor once.  He got a wicked gleam in his eye & said "I think they’re going to straighten out soon- we’ve just gotten the wife of one of the higher management as our patient".   Remind you of the Congressman who switched his vote on health care reform when he realized if he lost the next election his daughter with cancer would have a pre-existing condition & HE’D have to pay for her treatment thereafter? Best of luck! Irene Newhouse

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Nessa said: "When I was in an HMO and went out of plan for my ADHD treatment (both with Kathleen and the neuropsych) although we tried to get the HMO to cover the costs of the visits they would not.  However, they did cover all the medications that were prescribed." Well isn’t THAT special. Doesn’t make a bit of sense! Why would they pay to treat something they refuse to diagnose??? Sheeeesh…

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Nessa said: "When I was in an HMO and went out of plan for my ADHD treatment (both with Kathleen and the neuropsych) although we tried to get the HMO to cover the costs of the visits they would not.  However, they did cover all the medications that were prescribed." Well isn’t THAT special.

No not really. And I am sorry if you think that because I have done the best I can to take care of myself that I have the idea that I am ’special’ and entitled to special treatment.  Trust me when I started with Kathleen, I doubt you even knew who she was.  It had nothing to do with the treatment staff. Quite honestly dear, my connections locally are a lot more impressive than you would know.  In addition, if I was able to pay out of plan for treatments costing thousands of dollars my resources financially are trust me pretty enviable.  (trust me they are more enviable than you could imagine). Why in the world would you invoke the satarical isn’t that special? What did I do to provoke you?   Doesn’t make a bit of sense! Why would they pay to treat something they refuse to diagnose???

They didn’t refuse to diagnosis it.  They refused to pay for the doctors I chose to go to out of plan.  Why would they pay for out of plan if they had someone in plan that could according to them do the same thing. Next time Susan don’t read between the lines.  I never said that the HMO would not cover diagnosis.  I said that I tried to get them to cover Kathleen and the neuropsych.  Their arguement was that since they had doctors and therapists in plan that handled ADHD they did not have to pay for me to go out of plan.  We tried to get them to pay for it under the clause showing that specialist out of plan had to be used to treat an extreme case that was not going to respond to the in plan treatment options.   They said they would not pay for the doctors but they paid for all the blood work and they paid for all the medications AND they were going to pay for the bone marrow harvesting and storage before the liver failure side effect of felbatol was discovered. Sometimes all you have to do is ask.  The worst they can do is say no.   Then you ask why and they tell you.  Then you talk so more. Sheeeesh…

Yeah I know your stupidity and arrogance amaze me. — Nessa — Does a radioactive cat have 18 half lives?

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Biofeedback and add

Question:

no evidence to suggest that those who do biofeedback have any lasting effect.  i’m trying to have self and son do a type of meditation together instead of elaborate eeg/biofeedback Dr. Joel Lubar followed-up 55 patients who underwent EEG biofeedback 1 to 10 years earlier and found that the improvements from neurofeedback persisted.

Yup.  OTOH, Lubar makes a living selling neurofeedback. Double-blind might be more persuasive. — "Amid reports that the US House of Representatives’ open mail  servers were used to relay spam, a House subcommittee met  Thursday and approved legislation that effectively approves  the practice." — Deborah Scoblionkov D. C. & M. V. Sessions

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Donna, I would like to know too.  Did you get any information?  I have only read about it. Good Luck, Sandy

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Donna, I just took my son, 12, to a doctor last Monday in our area that specializes in neuro-feedback It was only a consultation.  Our situation is that my son has tried Ritalin, Cylert and Adderall and he developed tics on all of them.  He is now on Prozac for depression only.   I have heard from a friend of mine who took her daughter for neuro-feedback, that it definitely helps, but does not solve all the problems. It greatly concerned me that my son will not haveanything to help him focus in school, so I started looking for alternatives.  There is a doctor who travels to my city from a near by university just to treat patients in my area.  I had just read in Prevention Magazine that neuro-feedback is helpful for ADHD kids so that is why I pursued this.  I’m really excited about the next appointment on the 19th when they do the "brain mapping". Today we went to see a pediatric neurologist to see if she had any answers. Her approach was different, but not unreasonable.  So we will do everything we can to help our son succeed in school and in life.  He struggles so much with the disorder, even when he was on stimulents.  It’s heartbreaking. Good Luck!!! Betty

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Has anyone tried biofeedback for their child with add?  If so what was the outcome? Thanks, Donna

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We are trying neurofeedback ( better than biofeedback I understand) for my son, 11 yrs old who has the slow information processing inattentive type ADD. He also has severe learning difficulties. He has tried a lot of different medications but if they work they seem to wear off or he gets intolerant/depressed. He has had 17 sessions so far and he says it is the only thing that has really helped him. I understand it is a slow process but he has started school again after scholl hols (we are in Australia) and he’s finding everything easier. The first sessions are easier but as he has a language disability and the terminals are placed on those areas now it is getting more difficult but he is progressing. I’m still very optomistic although it’s expensive. Neurofeedback works on lowering the theta waves. I have a feeling biofeedback works on the beta waves, but stand to be corrected ? Jenny – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone tried biofeedback for their child with add?  If so what was the outcome? Thanks, Donna

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haven’t tried, but asked several professionals (child psychologist we see, pediatric neurologist and a pediatric occupational therapist) who all said the same thing.  can’t hurt, but don’t buy/use expensive machine.  instead consider doing ANY activity like yoga, meditation, martial art that child will do that requires some concentration – all tend to cause the brain waves to go to the relaxed state.  no evidence to suggest that those who do biofeedback have any lasting effect.  i’m trying to have self and son do a type of meditation together instead of elaborate eeg/biofeedback

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no evidence to suggest that those who do biofeedback have any lasting effect.  i’m trying to have self and son do a type of meditation together instead of elaborate eeg/biofeedback

Dr. Joel Lubar followed-up 55 patients who underwent EEG biofeedback 1 to 10 years earlier and found that the improvements from neurofeedback persisted.

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Neurofeedback works on lowering the theta waves. I have a feeling biofeedback works on the beta waves, but stand to be corrected ?

The terms biofeedback and neurofeedback are sometimes thought to refer to the same technique when they differ significantly in approach and history. Physiological biofeedback (heart rate, GSR, hand temperature) is used primarily for relaxation and stress management and is not typically involved in ADHD treatment. Neurofeedback or EEG biofeedback refers to training of the SMR and Beta rhythms of the EEG and it has a 25-year history in treating hyperactivity. David Kaiser

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