Attention Deficit Disorder

Aspartame pointer

Question:

:      Some people ask why I’m quite aggressive in response to such posts. : *THAT* is exactly why.  If they knew what they were talking about, they : could list several such studies, just about off the top of their heads. : Since they can’t do this, and never even seem to attempt to do it, about : the only assumption *I* can see making is that they’re liars. . . people : who, though they know they’re ignorant, still insist on speaking : incorrectly in ignorance. Keep it up John.  You’re posts are right on target.  The people such as Betty Martini and Mark Gold are the true aggressors – posting inappropriately and without anything to back their statements up – then retreating until the next time.   We can’t get rid of these parasites, but at least we can rebut them – and you do it particularly well. Ann — you’re going, every road will                              Ann Silberman take you there.                                            

Response:

: :      Some people ask why I’m quite aggressive in response to such posts. : : *THAT* is exactly why.  If they knew what they were talking about, they : : could list several such studies, just about off the top of their heads. : : Since they can’t do this, and never even seem to attempt to do it, about : : the only assumption *I* can see making is that they’re liars. . . people : : who, though they know they’re ignorant, still insist on speaking : : incorrectly in ignorance. : Keep it up John.  You’re posts are right on target.  The people such as : Betty Martini and Mark Gold are the true aggressors – posting : inappropriately and without anything to back their statements up – then : retreating until the next time.   We can’t get rid of these parasites, : but at least we can rebut them – and you do it particularly well. : Ann Regardless of the popularity or unpopularity of the posters, I wanted to see for myself. I hopped over to Mark Gold’s web page and read some of the literature. There’s quite a lot. Many of the arguments seem reasonable. And there _are_ tables to look at and references for them. I also linked over to his references (100K of them), searching particularly for keywords involving ADD, seizures, and mania. Sure enough there were some cites that corroborated with what I’d read, but what I’d like to do is read up more. (Unfortunately, it’s on my to-do list, which has a _very_ low completion rate.) In particular I wanted to check up on aspartame and mania because my initial diagnosis was bipolar manic depression intead of ADD, and I wanted to gather facts to support ADD and refute the bipolar dx. So lo and behold I found the cite for Walton’s studies:       Walton, Ralph G., 1986. "Seizure and Mania After High Intake         of Aspartame," Psychosomatics, Volume 27, page 218-220.         Walton, Ralph G., et al., 1993. "Adverse Reactions to           Aspartame: Double-Blind Challenge in Patients From a                 Vulnerable Population," Biological Psychiatry, Volume 34,         page 13-17.                                           As it turns out the 1986 study is also cited in Goodwin and Jamison, "Manic Depressive Illness" which is what my psychologist recommended I read to learn about manic depression and is considered _the_ reference. The more I read it the more convinced I was I had ADD, not MD. And the study at least explained in part why I could have exhibited manic signs which masked the ADD. Other stuff I found among the references:       Shaywitz, B.A., et al., 1993. "Evaluation of Aspartame on           Behavior and Cognitive Function in Children With               Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD)," Journal of Clinical         and Experimental Neuropsychology, Volume 15, page 407       Shaywitz, Bennett A., et al., 1994b. "Aspartame, Behavior,         and Cognitive Function in Children With Attention Deficit         Disorder," Pediatrics, Volume 93, page 70-75.               Wood, David R., Fred W. Reimherr, Paul H. Wender, 1985.             "Treatment of Attention Deficit Disorder With DL-                 Phenylalanine," Psychiatry Research, Volume 16, page 21-26. So what does this have to do with this thread and newsgroup? 1. Despite the pushiness (perceived or real) and the resistance to    same of the aspartame posters, there’s some valid information    that might be useful that pertains to ADD. 2. Some of that information partially explained why I was Dx’ed manic    instead of ADD. 3. Somebody wanted hard references, so here you go. 4. Martini et al are _not_ liars. Well-meaning, probably. Fervent, yes.    Overzealous, perhaps. There’s _some_ truth. Whether aspartame is    the root of all evil, I don’t know. Tobacco isn’t the root of    all evil. Thalidomide isn’t the root of all evil, but give birth    to a thalidomide baby and you might think so for a long time.    Someone close to Betty apparently died due to asparame. Okay, so    I’ll give some leeway. John Palmer has a low threshold for her    postings. Okay, so I’ll give him some leeway too. 5. As much as I dislike spams and flames, I got something useful out    of this fest. It took awhile, though. Van — Hawksbill Capital Management – Santa Rosa, CA / (707) 575-7077 "Parang lumalakad ako sa loob ng panaginip" / Teatro ng Tanan / Windsurfing

Response:

 … some cites that corroborated with what I’d read, but what I’d like to do is read up more. (Unfortunately, it’s on my to-do list, which has a _very_ low completion rate.)  … 3. Somebody wanted hard references, so here you go.

Thank you, very much!  They go on my to-do list also (grin). Would someone who has Medline access be willing to pull up the abstracts on those studies?  The only one I recognize from prior Net discussion is the "challenge in a vulnerable population" from Biol. Psychiatry, which was reported online a year or so ago.

Response:

     (A lot of good aspartame stuff) : So what does this have to do with this thread and newsgroup? : 1. Despite the pushiness (perceived or real) and the resistance to :    same of the aspartame posters, there’s some valid information :    that might be useful that pertains to ADD.      Nod.  And if a person was posting that information, and not just speeches and rants, I’d be silent or supporting. : 4. Martini et al are _not_ liars. Well-meaning, probably. Fervent, yes. :    Overzealous, perhaps. There’s _some_ truth.      A liar is not merely someone who says something that isn’t true.  I could honestly tell you that I’m 29 years old, and find out that you REALLY wanted to know that I was 29 years old, 4 months and 17 days. . . so I didn’t tell you my age.  It’s not true that I’m 29 years old. . . but since most people only WANT "complete years", saying that is honest.      Suppose I asked you how much the toll on a bridge was, and you told me it was a dollar.  Suppose, also, you didn’t know what the toll was.  Even if the toll was a dollar, you lied.  Your only truthful answer would be "I don’t know, but I *THINK* it’s a dollar."      By saying "the toll is a dollar", you made two statements: 1) what the toll was, and 2) an implied statement "this is true to the best of my knowledge."      Martini is *NOT* a liar because she necessarily says false things; she’s a liar because she claims to have knowledge that she’s repeatedly demonstrated an inability to support.   :    Someone close to Betty apparently died due to asparame. Okay, so :    I’ll give some leeway. John Palmer has a low threshold for her :    postings. Okay, so I’ll give him some leeway too.       The point is that she’s very unlikely to keep someone else from dying from aspartame by screaming like a shrew and citing false "facts".  Now, if she could provide useful information, I wouldn’t mind.  You provided useful information, so I don’t mind.      There’re tons of nuts out there, some of whom swear that we’re all dying because the soil is depleted, so all of our food is useless. . . such cranks are harmless.  Those who put on a scientific face are *MORE* dangerous.        Here’s one for you: suppose a dieter who’s depressed listens to Martini and, hearing that aspartame causes depression, stops aspartame and decides not to seek treatment for depression  because, after all, stopping aspartame is going to cure the depression.  What happens THEN? :   : 5. As much as I dislike spams and flames, I got something useful out :    of this fest. It took awhile, though.     And *THAT* is something I can applaud.

Response:

(Aaggghh, I spent an hour writing a post and the ! newsreader fails to post it. Here it goes again, from what I remember….) :      Suppose I asked you how much the toll on a bridge was, and you told me : it was a dollar.  Suppose, also, you didn’t know what the toll was.  Even : if the toll was a dollar, you lied.  Your only truthful answer would be "I : don’t know, but I *THINK* it’s a dollar." There was a humorous short story by Asimov (or was it Smullyan?) about a psychiatrist, a patient and a lie detector. It begins when the lie detector goes off when the patient saw a blue chair and said something like "the chair looks blue." And no matter how the patient tried to rephrase his statement he always set off the buzzer. The chair was blue; he was quite certain of it, but to say it _appeared_ blue was to imply that he was unsure, which he wasn’t, and therefore the detector caught his lie! In the end it turns out he should have simply said "the chair is blue." It’s a hilarious story. :      By saying "the toll is a dollar", you made two statements: : 1) what the toll was, and : 2) an implied statement "this is true to the best of my knowledge." And (3) an social connotation that "I am confident of my knowledge." So how does this relate to ADD? Real-life example where I used to work: I find that I try to be as honest (or more accurately, to be as accurate) as possible, so oftentimes I my opinions include disclaimers and other conditions that leave my opinion open to possibilities that I may have not accounted for. In the meantime, others in the meeting have ideas which I question, but because they are so strongly convinced that I give them the benefit of the doubt because there’s still the possibility that they know something I don’t. It turns out that I was right and they weren’t. But the damage had already been done: they came off as decisive and confident, while I appeared indecisive and unsure of the facts, so in the realm of office politics and I sink down a notch in management’s eyes relative to my colleagues. This happens a lot in environments where management has little technical savvy and relies on other cues to gauge "performance." I feel that my constant "analysis paralysis" — difficulty to commit for want of better or more information, which affected my standing where I worked — is attributable to my ADD. :      Here’s one for you: suppose a dieter who’s depressed listens to : Martini and, hearing that aspartame causes depression, stops aspartame and : decides not to seek treatment for depression  because, after all, stopping : aspartame is going to cure the depression.  What happens THEN? In that particular case, it won’t work and she’ll find out soon enough. Suppose someone with cancer has a sore, sees an ad for something that heals sores, buys the ointment and doesn’t see a doctor till much later. In the general case, it’s a tough issue and I have no solution. Van — Hawksbill Capital Management – Santa Rosa, CA / (707) 575-7077 "Parang lumalakad ako sa loob ng panaginip" / Teatro ng Tanan / Windsurfing

Response:

: :      Here’s one for you: suppose a dieter who’s depressed listens to : : Martini and, hearing that aspartame causes depression, stops aspartame and : : decides not to seek treatment for depression  because, after all, stopping : : aspartame is going to cure the depression.  What happens THEN? : In that particular case, it won’t work and she’ll find out soon enough. Oops, I meant to say that IF it doesn’t work, she’ll find out soon enough. I made a mistake, no lie. Sorry, folks. Brain fart. Van — Hawksbill Capital Management – Santa Rosa, CA / (707) 575-7077 "Parang lumalakad ako sa loob ng panaginip" / Teatro ng Tanan / Windsurfing

Response:

: :      By saying "the toll is a dollar", you made two statements: : : 1) what the toll was, and : : 2) an implied statement "this is true to the best of my knowledge." : And (3) an social connotation that "I am confident of my knowledge."     (Which is implied by statement 2; otherwise it’s not "to the best of your knowledge") : :      Here’s one for you: suppose a dieter who’s depressed listens to : : Martini and, hearing that aspartame causes depression, stops aspartame and : : decides not to seek treatment for depression  because, after all, stopping : : aspartame is going to cure the depression.  What happens THEN? : In that particular case, it won’t work and she’ll find out soon enough.       To be snide and drive my point home, I’ll say "You’ve obviously never heard of the word ’suicide’."       I’ll then say I’m sorry, and point out that you don’t have a good understanding of depression; serious depression can have a rather small "action opportunity" before you decide it’s not worth it, or that you don’t need it, or whatever.  "Stopping aspartame" should be in the same realm as "getting more exercise/sun/fresh air/good food", and used *IN ADDITION* to a caregiver’s guidance and help.       And if Martini were saying "if you’re feeling depressed, try stopping aspartame", she wouldn’t hear word one of complaint from me.  Instead she talks about "toxins" and similar bullshit.

Response:

Sure enough there were some cites that corroborated with what I’d read, but what I’d like to do is read up more.

Suggest you read up on Aspartame on MEDLINE. There are many studies, both double blind and challenge (that is where the subjects are chosen because their parents or they claim that aspartame causes problems) that debunk all of this hogwash. Be extremely careful as to what you are reading as to where it is published, who is writing it and also the nature of the study. One of the anti-aspartamers claims is that it causes blindness. According to everything I could find, aspartame consumption is going up and new cases of blindness are going down. This is a cult like group that uses some facts to sucker you in. Be careful. Mark S. Probert Merrick, New York

Response:

(I’m afraid we’ve gotten off track from ADD, but there’s _some_ stuff that may apply to those who suffer from depression. If you have better things to read, please skip.) : : :      By saying "the toll is a dollar", you made two statements: : : : 1) what the toll was, and : : : 2) an implied statement "this is true to the best of my knowledge." : : And (3) an social connotation that "I am confident of my knowledge." :     (Which is implied by statement 2; otherwise it’s not "to the best of : your knowledge") Er, is _inferred_ by statement 2. Reasonable estimate doesn’t imply confidence, but confidence implies reasonable estimate. : : :      Here’s one for you: suppose a dieter who’s depressed listens to : : : Martini and, hearing that aspartame causes depression, stops aspartame and : : : decides not to seek treatment for depression  because, after all, stopping : : : aspartame is going to cure the depression.  What happens THEN? : : In that particular case, it won’t work and she’ll find out soon enough. :       To be snide and drive my point home, I’ll say "You’ve obviously never : heard of the word ’suicide’." Then she found out. _Not_ soon enough. Sorry, I used the colloquial meaning and didn’t spot the literal interpretation. I also didn’t mean to be as flippant as this came across. But if she knew she was depressed in the first place couldn’t she see that she’s still depressed? (Er, and since I _have_ ‘heard’ of the word suicide, to be snide back and drive _my_ point I’d either assume it’s to the best of your knowledge and confidence, thus deduce that you’re a liar for not adding AFAICT, or I’d not-impolitely fire a warning shot and ask where you got your information and references, etc., but instead I can agree with what you mean to say. :       I’ll then say I’m sorry, and point out that you don’t have a good : understanding of depression; serious depression can have a rather small : "action opportunity" before you decide it’s not worth it, or that you don’t : need it, or whatever.  "Stopping aspartame" should be in the same realm as : "getting more exercise/sun/fresh air/good food", and used *IN ADDITION* to : a caregiver’s guidance and help.   Yes, the ‘action opportunity’ can have a very low threshold; if you’re at 15 or so on the Fieve-Dunner scale (serious), even having a flat tire could make you cross the line. Though I’d probably think that stopping NutraSweet is an action likely taken at around 35 (_after_ recognizing depression but _before_ going so low that she thinks what’s the use of stopping). I’m only speculating; after all it was a hypothetical (rhetorical?) question. I’m not familiar with the rates at which one can sink. I thought it would still be a matter of _some_ time because there’s a HUGE difference between those two severities of depression. (Unless you’re a rapid-cycler? Anyone know?) Of course in skydiving, there have been incidents where people failed to pull their reserve because they’re waiting for their warning altimeter to sound off or their automatic activation device to deploy for them, so I could imagine that our dieter could still be waiting for the aspartame to wear off before it’s too late. But then again, she could just as easily been waiting for her SSRI to kick in too. In either case she should’ve sought help and told what she was up to, aspartame/exercise/whatever, OR if her Lith or Imipramine’s not working, for that matter. In short, I agree with you, _there’s no substitute for professional help_, But I have to add _even when on meds_, and certainly when trying homegrown recipes. Just like the skydiver, having a safety device is no excuse for not pulling the ripcord. (You know? I think I just changed subjects again. Oops.) :     And if Martini were saying "if you’re feeling depressed, try stopping : aspartame", she wouldn’t hear word one of complaint from me.  Instead she : talks about "toxins" and similar bullshit. On the first, I agree. On the second, my response is to ignore, your response is to react. Fair enough. Van — Hawksbill Capital Management – Santa Rosa, CA / (707) 575-7077 "Parang lumalakad ako sa loob ng panaginip" / Teatro ng Tanan / Windsurfing

Response:

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