Attention Deficit Disorder

Terry Croslow and ASAD (long)

Question:

I think Terry would be surprised just how many people in ASAD do NOT take meds for one reason or another. I wonder if he could listen enough to find out…. Linda

Response:

Chris, about your post Re: Terry Croslow and ASAD: You said it very well. Linda

Response:

Linda said: Chris, about your post Re: Terry Croslow and ASAD: You said it very well. Linda You bet! Bravo, Chris!!

Response:

Terry said: "I care whether their minds are open enough to consider what I am saying." You are assuming there is something new about what you are saying. You are of course entitled to your opinions, but there’s nothing new about them. Many (most) of us have already had ample opportunity to consider them. If I were teaching trig, and someone wanted to come into my class and explain to me why 2 + 2 = 4, I wouldn’t be terribly interested. If the person kept insisting that 2 + 2 = 5, I wouldn’t be at all interested. Your facts are wrong. The conclusions you based on those errant facts are wrong. There’s nothing for most of us to consider there. That does NOT make us "close-minded." The close-minded person would be the one who hears lots and lots of well-informed people say "you’re mistaken," and tells them to fuck off.

Response:

Joe said: "Usenet is a "distributed network."  It is not a mailing list, as some seem to believe.  It is entirely possible that Susan did not see what you called an "olive branch" until some time had gone by. "

In fact, Joe, that is exactly what happened. I saw several extremely insulting posts from Terry followed by an olive branch — accompanied by a boatload of misinformation.

Response:

I appreciate the civility and care you have taken in constructing your post. Thank you.  Please do not mistake my civility and care for approval of what I believe are your views, or for the way you express those views.

I don’t believe I have given any indication of mistaking your civility for your agreement.  I don’t care whether people agree with me or not. I care whether their minds are open enough to consider what I am saying. I put my son on Ritalin and Zoloft.  I went through steps and procedures with the schools very similar, if not identical, to the ones I see described today in ASAD by other parents facing the problems I faced.  In other words, I was open to what is the preferred method of treating ADHD in this group.  I used the drugs. How many here who have assailed me have tried changing their lifestyles to include less money and material comfort which would allow more time for them to devote to the children they brought into this world? That’s the question for me.  I tried the prescribed drugs. Then I tried something different that worked.  Nobody here wants to talk about something different that worked for me.  If I didn’t have such an appalling lack of knowledge I might mistakenly think that SOME people (not ALL people)would rather just hand their kids a pill than move out of their own comfort zones and do something their friends and neighbors might think radical or scary or strange. But, we’re not even allowed to utter such hateful, bigoted, prejudiced, ignorant nonsense here, are we? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Earlier, I responded to a rare civil question from SusanS29 with a civil post and the offer of an olive branch and she flamed me once again for my trouble. I am guessing that you are somewhat new to Usenet.  If you are, then it may be helpful for you to learn that messages do not propagate across the ‘net instantly.  I may respond to a post from a specific person, but that post might not appear on *that* person’s server for days.  Usenet is a "distributed network."  It is not a mailing list, as some seem to believe.  It is entirely possible that Susan did not see what you called an "olive branch" until some time had gone by.  It is also possible that she may have chosen not to read your posts. It’s one of the beauties of Usenet–you don’t have to "listen to" (read) what you don’t want to.  Frankly, given your earlier comments to Susan, I’m not a bit surprised: Evidently you went to a fourth-rate school because you failed to read accurately what I said. [snip] If you find that insulting, you’re really gonna love this:  Fuck-off, you politically correct airhead.  Parents should speak up when they have questions about what is happening to their children in today’s educational system.  Maybe you don’t read the newspapers. No, he did not need an intervention, you behaviorist Nazi.  Get over yourself. You have no sense of professionalism at all that I can see.   TWC

Your guess would be incorrect.  Several days passed and there was still only her flame. It is curious to me that my replies are quoted here as evidence that I am rude and inconsiderate, but there is no mention of what it was SusanS29 said to me that provoked my response, nor any mention of her tone which is quite paternalistic and condescending, in my opinion. SusanS29 is a ‘mothering’ type who has her mind made up that no one could possibly learn more from his experience than she has learned from her own. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As to my reference to Soma, I did not name the wrong book or author in the conversation with the teacher and, no, that is not why she looked back at me with a blank face.  Anyone who recognizes the reference to Soma gets my point.  It doesn’t really matter a whole lot that I referenced the wrong author in that one particular usenet post.  Most of the replies to me, this one excepted, have been filled with misspellings, missing or incorrect punctuation, sloppy capitalization, mismatched tenses and other grammatical errors, but, I have not pointed out a single one of these incidents nor ridiculed anyone for making Let me give you (yet another) suggestion, Terry: criticizing someone’s spelling, punctuation and grammar in Usenet posts is widely viewed as being *very* poor form.  It is especially risky to use a "spelling flame" if you are subject to the occasional misspelling or grammatical error–as you have done several times in this very post.

Right you are, Joe.  That is precisely why I haven’t done it.  My point is, I am quite willing to overlook such minor matters in favor of ferreting out the point of what the writer is expressing.  Everyone who corrected me on the Orwell/Huxley faux pas knew perfectly well what my point was; yet they preferred, instead, to deflect attention from the real issue (which was that a prescient author some years ago had ‘predicted’ wide-spread, officially approved drugging of large segments of the population to make those segments more controllable by the ‘officials’) and focus on a matter or relatively little importance, an oversight. them.  Yet, this inadvertent error was held up to me over and again as proof positive that I am an arrogant, ignorant, prejudiced sub-human creature who hates and insults the weak and afflicted. So, Terry?  How is your "inadvertent error" in a Usenet posting different from the possibility that this teacher either did not heed your words with the rapt, reverent attention you may have expected, and had other things on her mind besides remembering that particular reference?  Besides–judging from your contemptuous tone in describing these teachers, I can imagine that they would be somewhat disinclined to discuss literature with you.

I didn’t feel contempt for them the day I first met them and I didn’t feel contempt for them on the day of the meeting.  I feel contempt for them now after four more years of observing them in action with the children of friends of mine.  Does that count?  Your forum is full of reports today by parents dealing with teachers and administrators they think are being unfair, if not devious, if not criminal.  Why should my report on teachers in my area be any more suspect? And Joe, do you really believe teachers need not listen carefully to the parents during conferences about LD/ADHD?  I’m surprised.  I think teachers SHOULD be listening raptly as parents should ALSO be listening raptly during such conferences.  I was listening raptly to her and I believe she was listening raptly to me.  What I said isn’t about listening, but YES, people should be LISTENING to each other as they discuss these vital issues. What I reported was this:  she said maybe our son needed to be on Ritalin.  I said, gee, it reminds me of Huxley’s Soma.  The point is, she didn’t know about the Soma.  I was just surprised, I guess wrongly, that she had never even heard of the book or the drug.  I thought Brave New World was an important work.  For the rest, I would only point out that I did not make any of my comments in a vaccuum.  There has been a lot of provocation on the part of several contributors to this forum, most of it totally un-called for.  I have responded to those provocations in kind and sometimes I have escalated the conflict. Can you acknowledge the possibility–the STRONG possibility–that your statements, aside from displaying sometimes an appalling lack of knowledge, might have been what provoked that reaction?  You see, if you were to tell me that any of my "problems" were somehow attributable to my lack of moral fiber (and that *is* what you’ve said here), it is highly likely that I’ll react rather…strongly.

I will acknowledge the possibility of almost anything.  I try not to live with my head in the sand.  I do NOT acknowledge an ‘appalling lack of knowledge’ about Ritalin or ADHD.  On the other hand, I never claimed any great body of knowledge either as many here seem to be doing.  I fail to see what makes you or SusanS29 such experts (or anyone else whose posts I have read in this forum for that matter) in two subjects (Ritalin and ADHD) that doctors and researchers freely admit they don’t know much about.  Everyone here seems to have their mind pretty well made up that Ritalin or Adderil are the BEST if not the only way to treat ADHD.  There are many doctors and researchers in the field who do NOT agree or are not so sure. Do people here know the difference between knowledge and belief? Can you acknowledge the possibility, the strong possibility, that for SOME PEOPLE, SOME of their problems MAY be caused by ‘moral’ weakness? That is what I said.  I never said that all problems of all people are caused by moral weakness. If you or anyone else anywhere is blaming every outside source that can be named for their problems and can’t even acknowledge that they may have played or be playing some small role in the context of the problem then there is very little hope for recovery from whatever problem you may be talking about.  It’s called the ‘victim’ mentality.  It’s called ‘denial’.  It’s not a good thing. Does the old saying, ‘there is more than one way to skin a cat’ ring a bell? Terry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Joe Parsons It is my contention that many have abdicated their personal responsibilities as parents and now expect too much of teachers, school systems and other civil officials.  The corrolary to this is that we tend to rely too heavily on their

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Response:

If you or anyone else anywhere is blaming every outside source that can be named for their problems and can’t even acknowledge that they may have played or be playing some small role in the context of the problem then there is very little hope for recovery from whatever problem you may be talking about.

Very good, Terry!  Now read that again and see how it applies _directly_ to you.  Instead of taking responsibility for your own postings, you have insisted on blaming other people for "not understanding" or "not reading" or "misrepresenting" you. A _moral_ position would be one in which you acknowedged that your behavior has been inappropriate, rude, and misinformed, followed by an apology. Think about it.   — Dave

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I appreciate the civility and care you have taken in constructing your post. Thank you.  Please do not mistake my civility and care for approval of what I believe are your views, or for the way you express those views. I don’t believe I have given any indication of mistaking your civility for your agreement.  I don’t care whether people agree with me or not. I care whether their minds are open enough to consider what I am saying.

Do you suppose the *way* in which you have been communicating here might have some bearing on the often-hostile reaction to what you say here? I put my son on Ritalin and Zoloft.  I went through steps and procedures with the schools very similar, if not identical, to the ones I see described today in ASAD by other parents facing the problems I faced.  In other words, I was open to what is the preferred method of treating ADHD in this group.  I used the drugs.

See, Terry, there is another area where you are wrong; I suspect that you have not bothered follow enough of this newsgroup to know *what* the participants here believe. How many here who have assailed me have tried changing their lifestyles to include less money and material comfort which would allow more time for them to devote to the children they brought into this world?

You have no way of knowing what others do, do you?  And yet from the beginning you have tried to paint yourself as having some exalted character, where everyone else, character-deficient, is taking the easy way out. That’s the question for me.  I tried the prescribed drugs. Then I tried something different that worked.  Nobody here wants to talk about something different that worked for me.  If I didn’t have such an appalling lack of knowledge I might mistakenly think that SOME people (not ALL people)would rather just hand their kids a pill than move out of their own comfort zones and do something their friends and neighbors might think radical or scary or strange. But, we’re not even allowed to utter such hateful, bigoted, prejudiced, ignorant nonsense here, are we?

Please.  You seem to be mistaking disagreement with your views with a  We still have some free speech in this country.  I am tired of bringing items for consideration to one discussion or another and having "experts" come out of the woodwork to tell me we shouldn’t even be talking about such matters.

…and yet, strangely, I can’t find *anyone* making that kind of statement.  Now, there *were* a couple of people who told you to piss off–but I’m inclined to view that as a reaction to the often insulting nature of your posts, rather than anything else. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Earlier, I responded to a rare civil question from SusanS29 with a civil post and the offer of an olive branch and she flamed me once again for my trouble. I am guessing that you are somewhat new to Usenet.  If you are, then it may be helpful for you to learn that messages do not propagate across the ‘net instantly.  I may respond to a post from a specific person, but that post might not appear on *that* person’s server for days.  Usenet is a "distributed network."  It is not a mailing list, as some seem to believe.  It is entirely possible that Susan did not see what you called an "olive branch" until some time had gone by.  It is also possible that she may have chosen not to read your posts. It’s one of the beauties of Usenet–you don’t have to "listen to" (read) what you don’t want to.  Frankly, given your earlier comments to Susan, I’m not a bit surprised: Evidently you went to a fourth-rate school because you failed to read accurately what I said. [snip] If you find that insulting, you’re really gonna love this:  Fuck-off, you politically correct airhead.  Parents should speak up when they have questions about what is happening to their children in today’s educational system.  Maybe you don’t read the newspapers. No, he did not need an intervention, you behaviorist Nazi.  Get over yourself. You have no sense of professionalism at all that I can see.   TWC Your guess would be incorrect.  Several days passed and there was still only her flame.

You’re saying that you are *not* new to Usenet, that you are familiar with its vagaries of message propagation?  Or that Susan *should* have received your non-insulting message?  Or are you suggesting that she has some obligation to read your every post, no matter how odious they might be? It is curious to me that my replies are quoted here as evidence that I am rude and inconsiderate, but there is no mention of what it was SusanS29 said to me that provoked my response,

All those posts are available to anyone reading the thread. Personally, I think Susan was quite restrained and civil, up until If you find that insulting, you’re really gonna love this:  Fuck-off, you politically correct airhead.  

Now, she *did* disagree with what you said, saying "you post twaddle." Prior to that time, she was more than civil–and I don’t know that anyone could reasonably say that her statement was particularly provocative.  I suppose it’s conceivable that you found the "twaddle" characterization of your posts to be some egregious breach; if so, then perhaps you are too thin-skinned for Usenet. nor any mention of her tone which is quite paternalistic and condescending, in my opinion. SusanS29 is a ‘mothering’ type who has her mind made up that no one could possibly learn more from his experience than she has learned from her own.

She has been posting here and interacting with the rest of the community for a couple of years, and I’d say her bona fides were pretty good.  That is not to say that everyone needs to agree with her style, but I think her background as a well-trained educator, author, lecturer and advocate gives her considerable credibility.  Frankly, there are times when her "stern teacher" demeanor rubs me the wrong way–but that doesn’t stop me from acknowledging the considerable value of what she contributes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As to my reference to Soma, I did not name the wrong book or author in the conversation with the teacher and, no, that is not why she looked back at me with a blank face.  Anyone who recognizes the reference to Soma gets my point.  It doesn’t really matter a whole lot that I referenced the wrong author in that one particular usenet post.  Most of the replies to me, this one excepted, have been filled with misspellings, missing or incorrect punctuation, sloppy capitalization, mismatched tenses and other grammatical errors, but, I have not pointed out a single one of these incidents nor ridiculed anyone for making Let me give you (yet another) suggestion, Terry: criticizing someone’s spelling, punctuation and grammar in Usenet posts is widely viewed as being *very* poor form.  It is especially risky to use a "spelling flame" if you are subject to the occasional misspelling or grammatical error–as you have done several times in this very post. Right you are, Joe.  That is precisely why I haven’t done it.  My point

{incredulous look} Terry, you just *did* it. is, I am quite willing to overlook such minor matters in favor of ferreting out the point of what the writer is expressing.  Everyone who corrected me on the Orwell/Huxley faux pas knew perfectly well what my point was; yet they preferred, instead, to deflect attention from the real issue (which was that a prescient author some years ago had ‘predicted’ wide-spread, officially approved drugging of large segments of the population to make those segments more controllable by the ‘officials’) and focus on a matter or relatively little importance, an oversight.

I don’t think your *intended* points were lost on any of us: that you view the use of Ritalin as being akin to the use of Soma in the society of BNW; that the teacher in question, whom you so contemptuously characterized as having attended a "third-rate school," did not recognize your literary reference. Your points were rather diluted, first by your mistaking Orwell for Huxley, then by equating the mild CNS stimulant, methylphenidate, with the fictitious mind-control drug, Soma.  Anyone with any inkling of the effects of a stimulant like methylphenidate would know that such a comparison is unapt. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – them.  Yet, this inadvertent error was held up to me over and again as proof positive that I am an arrogant, ignorant, prejudiced sub-human creature who hates and insults the weak and afflicted. So, Terry?  How is your "inadvertent error" in a Usenet posting different from the possibility that this teacher either did not heed your words with the rapt, reverent attention you may have expected, and had other things on her mind besides remembering that particular reference?  Besides–judging from your contemptuous tone in describing these teachers, I can imagine that they would be somewhat disinclined to discuss literature with you. I didn’t feel contempt for them the day I first met them and I didn’t feel contempt for them on the day of the meeting.  I feel contempt for them now after four more years of observing them in

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Response:

….. Can you acknowledge the possibility, the strong possibility, that for SOME PEOPLE, SOME of their problems MAY be caused by ‘moral’ weakness? That is what I said.  I never said that all problems of all people are caused by moral weakness.

No, Terry, that is not quite what you said.  You said that the idea that any and all problems of will and judgement are caused by brain dieseases is ridiculous.  You said, "any"!  It would be very nice if you acknowledge that you were wrong in that assertion. You also said that you were being incendiary on purpose.  An incendiary on purpose is called an arsonist.  An arsonist cannot say later on in the court that he was just being incendiary, and what is the fuss all about. B. Chandrasekaran

Response:

How about if we are offended not by what you said but by how you said it? How about if we are offended by your attitude?

Response:

So once again, there’s my story.  And, speaking to the group now, if you are offended that I suggested caution to HzAmazGrc, too bad.  If you are offended because you misread something I said, too bad.  I cannot be held responsible for your reading skills.  If you are offended because I don’t care to use or promote one of your sacred cows, too bad.  If reading the opinions of those who do not agree with you upsets you, too bad.  If you are jealous because we freed ourselves of the need to take medication in order to cope with our daily lives, you may want to consider changing your lifestyle to something that suits you better.  It will take courage and it will take commitment, but this is the only life we have.  Let’s live it.

You know.  Sometimes I wonder why the country has so many problems. Then  I run across people like this and I wonder why it doesn’t have more……

Response:

I appreciate the civility and care you have taken in constructing your post.

Thank you.  Please do not mistake my civility and care for approval of what I believe are your views, or for the way you express those views. Earlier, I responded to a rare civil question from SusanS29 with a civil post and the offer of an olive branch and she flamed me once again for my trouble.

I am guessing that you are somewhat new to Usenet.  If you are, then it may be helpful for you to learn that messages do not propagate across the ‘net instantly.  I may respond to a post from a specific person, but that post might not appear on *that* person’s server for days.  Usenet is a "distributed network."  It is not a mailing list, as some seem to believe.  It is entirely possible that Susan did not see what you called an "olive branch" until some time had gone by.  It is also possible that she may have chosen not to read your posts. It’s one of the beauties of Usenet–you don’t have to "listen to" (read) what you don’t want to.  Frankly, given your earlier comments to Susan, I’m not a bit surprised: Evidently you went to a fourth-rate school because you failed to read accurately what I said.  

[snip] If you find that insulting, you’re really gonna love this:  Fuck-off, you politically correct airhead.  Parents should speak up when they have questions about what is happening to their children in today’s educational system.  Maybe you don’t read the newspapers.

No, he did not need an intervention, you behaviorist Nazi.  Get over yourself.

You have no sense of professionalism at all that I can see.   TWC As to my reference to Soma, I did not name the wrong book or author in the conversation with the teacher and, no, that is not why she looked back at me with a blank face.  Anyone who recognizes the reference to Soma gets my point.  It doesn’t really matter a whole lot that I referenced the wrong author in that one particular usenet post.  Most of the replies to me, this one excepted, have been filled with misspellings, missing or incorrect punctuation, sloppy capitalization, mismatched tenses and other grammatical errors, but, I have not pointed out a single one of these incidents nor ridiculed anyone for making

Let me give you (yet another) suggestion, Terry: criticizing someone’s spelling, punctuation and grammar in Usenet posts is widely viewed as being *very* poor form.  It is especially risky to use a "spelling flame" if you are subject to the occasional misspelling or grammatical error–as you have done several times in this very post. them.  Yet, this inadvertent error was held up to me over and again as proof positive that I am an arrogant, ignorant, prejudiced sub-human creature who hates and insults the weak and afflicted.

So, Terry?  How is your "inadvertent error" in a Usenet posting different from the possibility that this teacher either did not heed your words with the rapt, reverent attention you may have expected, and had other things on her mind besides remembering that particular reference?  Besides–judging from your contemptuous tone in describing these teachers, I can imagine that they would be somewhat disinclined to discuss literature with you. For the rest, I would only point out that I did not make any of my comments in a vaccuum.  There has been a lot of provocation on the part of several contributors to this forum, most of it totally un-called for.  I have responded to those provocations in kind and sometimes I have escalated the conflict.

Can you acknowledge the possibility–the STRONG possibility–that your statements, aside from displaying sometimes an appalling lack of knowledge, might have been what provoked that reaction?  You see, if you were to tell me that any of my "problems" were somehow attributable to my lack of moral fiber (and that *is* what you’ve said here), it is highly likely that I’ll react rather…strongly. Joe Parsons It is my contention that many have abdicated their personal responsibilities as parents and now expect too much of teachers, school systems and other civil officials.  The corrolary to this is that we tend to rely too heavily on their advice which is necessarily colored been that no one here needs Ritalin or Zoloft any longer.  We are happy, productive, active in our community in a lot of voluteer efforts

[snip rest] Frequently Asked Questions for alt.support.attn-deficit and other resources for dealing with attention deficit disorder are at http://www.cyber-mall.com/asad/

Response:

I appreciate the civility and care you have taken in constructing your post. Earlier, I responded to a rare civil question from SusanS29 with a civil post and the offer of an olive branch and she flamed me once again for my trouble. As to my reference to Soma, I did not name the wrong book or author in the conversation with the teacher and, no, that is not why she looked back at me with a blank face.  Anyone who recognizes the reference to Soma gets my point.  It doesn’t really matter a whole lot that I referenced the wrong author in that one particular usenet post

Now *I* am confused…. You start by saying: "As to my reference to Soma, I did not name the wrong book or author ", but later in the same paragraph you say: ".  It doesn’t really matter a whole lot that I referenced the wrong author "

I quote Joe Parsons quoting an earlier post from you: His second grade teacher was fresh out of a third rate school and recommended that we put him on Ritalin and have him tested.  I commented that all this Ritalin boosting reminded me of Soma in Orwell’s 1984. She went blank on me.  She had never heard of the book. Can you acknowledge the possibility that she did not recognize the reference to Soma because *you* were referring to the wrong book? This is rather like criticizing someone on Usenet for a misspelled word (a "spelling flame"), but misspelling a word in your own post.

The only reason *I* do this, is because I happen to be a science fiction fan, and these two are "classics".  Orwell *did* write "1984", but your "Soma" reference comes from Aldous Huxley’s "Brave New World". Buny

Response:

Terry said: "I appreciate the civility and care you have taken in constructing your post." I am amazed you noticed, since you say "fuck-off" so easily. Not exactly civil (or persuasive).

Response:

Joe said: "Earlier, I responded to a rare civil question from SusanS29 with a civil post and the offer of an olive branch and she flamed me once again for my trouble.

I am guessing that you are somewhat new to Usenet." I think that’s probably true. I saw one civil post from him (although full of rampant misinformation) after several very insulting posts from him. No, they weren’t all directed at me. Some of them were directed at people I’m starting to think of as friends of a kind. Call me names? I’ll consider the source. Call everybody names? I may spit tacks. ONE civil post in a sea of "fuck-off" ’s. Some civility.

Response:

SumBuny quoted Terry saying: "Anyone who recognizes the reference to Soma gets my point.  It doesn’t really matter a whole lot that I referenced the wrong author…"

He’s kidding, right? He BLASTS the teacher for having a third-rate education and he didn’t even know who wrote the book. And… the reference is ill-thought, one which could ONLY be made by someone truly ignorant about ADHD. Really. The way he goes on and on and on about others’ ignorance… and then this… He’s testing a comedy routine before leaving for the Poconos, right? Right? RIGHT?????

Response:

I appreciate the civility and care you have taken in constructing your post. Earlier, I responded to a rare civil question from SusanS29 with a civil post and the offer of an olive branch and she flamed me once again for my trouble. As to my reference to Soma, I did not name the wrong book or author in the conversation with the teacher and, no, that is not why she looked back at me with a blank face.  Anyone who recognizes the reference to Soma gets my point.  It doesn’t really matter a whole lot that I referenced the wrong author in that one particular usenet post.  Most of the replies to me, this one excepted, have been filled with misspellings, missing or incorrect punctuation, sloppy capitalization, mismatched tenses and other grammatical errors, but, I have not pointed out a single one of these incidents nor ridiculed anyone for making them.  Yet, this inadvertent error was held up to me over and again as proof positive that I am an arrogant, ignorant, prejudiced sub-human creature who hates and insults the weak and afflicted. For the rest, I would only point out that I did not make any of my comments in a vaccuum.  There has been a lot of provocation on the part of several contributors to this forum, most of it totally un-called for.  I have responded to those provocations in kind and sometimes I have escalated the conflict. The original post was about a child whose mother reported had scored above the parameters of a test meant to show a need for special treatment at school.  She was told the child didn’t qualify for the LD special program.  I believe it was SusanS29 who immediately advised her to appeal the decision.  The appeal, she was told, should be based on the grounds that the mother was giving the child a lot of help at home and that without such help the child would not have scored so well. This raised two points for me about which I have seen and heard a lot of discussion, but not in this group.  I will pose them as questions. 1)Are schools giving young students too much homework, and if so, why?   2)If parents are having to spend two and three hours a day helping their children with homework, might it not follow that a teensy sliver of a possibility might exist that some would be better served if the mother merely home-schooled the child? It has been noted that most teachers, because of the number of students in the classroom, cannot devote two to three hours per day of individual attention to a given student.  The question has been raised, can an individual student accomplish as much academically in two to three hours of intense, personal attention per day as can be accomplished in a typical 8:00 to 3:00 school day including as it does, lunch, recesses, study halls, between class transit time, book changing, classroom disruptions, convocations, movie watching, etc. A lot of parents and a lot of teachers are under a lot of stress these days because, among other things, modern life moves at such a pace as to place a real premium on time.  In some ways, the imperatives of the business world have been imposed on the school systems at a time when sanctions against troublesome or non-traditional students have been reduced or removed altogether.  There is also the ever present threat of litigation which can now be instigated over any real or imagined offense. Isn’t it possible to misdiagnose a gifted student as learning disabled?  And, aren’t the warning signs of ADD/HD very similar to the same markers for ‘giftedness’?  Are there no instances of beleaguered teachers reaching a level of frustration with a boisterous student or students and calling in the parents to suggest they have the child tested for ADD/HD?  Do they never utter the word Ritalin in these rare instances?  To deny that this has ever happened in this nation of 240,000,000 people would be very unrealistic. Is the life and well-being of one child important or can we afford to ‘lose’ a few to these misdiagnoses?  If you agree that each child is important, then doesn’t it follow that very careful steps should be taken before any child is placed on Ritalin or some other psychotropic drug? Can these determinations be made in internet newsgroups?  Are children ever taken out of their homes by overzealous children and family services officials who think they know what is better for the children than their own parents?  There are a lot of factors at play here. Which advice, if given over the internet, is potentially more damaging to the child in the near term: 1)the recommendation for more involvement of school ‘officials’ and other non-parents in the life of a child; an ‘intervention’ or 2)the recommendation that great caution be taken and each step involving increased interaction with civil authorities be carefully evaluated in terms of the best interests of the child and the family?  What bad things could happen if my advice were followed and the parents thought a little more, did a little more research before taking the next step to have their son or daughter officially branded and tracked as learning disabled?  What harm does a little more study and reflection ever cause? It is my contention that many have abdicated their personal responsibilities as parents and now expect too much of teachers, school systems and other civil officials.  The corrolary to this is that we tend to rely too heavily on their advice which is necessarily colored by the needs, contraints and limitations of the institutions employing them.  Will anyone disagree that bureaucracies have always placed a rather large premium on their own survival often at the expense of those who are supposed to be served?  When was the last time you saw a bureaucracy dismantled and re-built from the ground up to make it more efficient and responsive to the needs of its constituents? Finally, I have taken great pains to say over and over that there are legitimate reasons for using anti-depressants, stimulants and such as part of medical therapies carefully supervised by health care professionals.  My comment about ’sucking it up’ and meeting life’s challenges head-on has been taken out of context again and again.  I said in several different places that my son was on Ritalin and Zoloft.  Our family used these drugs to help pull itself up.  And from the perspective made possible by the meds we decided to make some fundamental changes in the way we were living which included selling our successful business, retiring on very little income and making other financial sacrifices that few seem willing to make.  We reduced or eliminated some of the stresses in our lives in favor of having more TIME to devote to our personal and spiritual development and to our children during the years they need their parents most.  The result has been that no one here needs Ritalin or Zoloft any longer.  We are happy, productive, active in our community in a lot of voluteer efforts and we are getting to spend these great times with our children while they are still young.  I advocate these lifestyle changes.  I am for them.  Who wants to keep filling prescriptions and medicating themselves, risking the side effects, absorbing the expense, etc. if they can feel the same way, maybe even better without them? For this account of my personal experience and some strongly worded descriptions of my personal opinions which it was perfectly clear to anyone who thought about what I wrote were all based on anecdotal, personal experience, I was berated.  I am entitled to my opinions as are all here.  I struck back.  Hey, I was talking about my life and my family here.  SusanS29 told me I made the right choices, but for the wrong reasons.  Bullshit.  There’s a beginning to arrogance if I ever saw one. Then I was accused of arrogance, ignorance, prejudice, etc., etc. Anyone who wishes to read the record will see that I have apologized to Susan, Mr. Chandrakaran (forgive me if I misspelled your name) and to the group at large for any misunderstandings caused by my choice of words during my part of what became a verbal temper tantrum that I did not have in a vaccuum; that is, I did not have the tantrum by myself. So once again, there’s my story.  And, speaking to the group now, if you are offended that I suggested caution to HzAmazGrc, too bad.  If you are offended because you misread something I said, too bad.  I cannot be held responsible for your reading skills.  If you are offended because I don’t care to use or promote one of your sacred cows, too bad.  If reading the opinions of those who do not agree with you upsets you, too bad.  If you are jealous because we freed ourselves of the need to take medication in order to cope with our daily lives, you may want to consider changing your lifestyle to something that suits you better.  It will take courage and it will take commitment, but this is the only life we have.  Let’s live it. Terry Croslow Before you buy.

Response:

Terry– I realize that you first posted to ASAD inadvertently, and were somewhat taken aback by having your opinions being (in your view) unfairly and unreasonably attacked.  There is an explanation for the reaction to your posts, and for whatever it might be worth, I’d like to give you some insight into what I think caused that reaction. You first posted here in response to a question HzAmazGrac asked about learning disabilities–not about medication or treatment for ADHD. She asked her questions here knowing that a number of "regulars" in ASAD are highly experienced in the field.  At least one of those people (SusanS29) is a special ed teacher and author. Your first post to the thread began quite innocuously, but when you began to express your contempt for the educational system in the broad terms that you did, any of the several teachers and involved parents reading would be sure to, um…bristle: I’m warning you.  They’ll have her on Ritalin, Zoloft or something if you let them have their way.  She’ll grow-up thinking she is sub-par and will behave as such.  Has her teacher dropped out of the NEA?  Is she constantly at odds with her school’s administrators?  Unless the answer to these two questions is yes, she is probably not a good teacher.  She is just a good actress who has you thinking she is concerned about your daughter.  Next year your daughter will move on and this teacher will have no further involvment with her.  What message will that send to your daughter about people representing institutions who say they care about her?

These sweeping statements that you’ve made about people whom you don’t know were BOUND to be taken as insults. You went on to describe your experience with a teacher in "the best private school in the area:" putting me in a position to see first hand what incompetent, painted-up, middle aged, egotistical dimwits are now winning teaching awards, we moved him into the best private school in the area.

Can you see how this characterization might not be accepted kindly by others? His second grade teacher was fresh out of a third rate school and recommended that we put him on Ritalin and have him tested.  I commented that all this Ritalin boosting reminded me of Soma in Orwell’s 1984. She went blank on me.  She had never heard of the book.

Can you acknowledge the possibility that she did not recognize the reference to Soma because *you* were referring to the wrong book? This is rather like criticizing someone on Usenet for a misspelled word (a "spelling flame"), but misspelling a word in your own post. In any case, you got into more treacherous territory as you referred to "Ritalin boosting," as though teachers were dispensing the stuff. We’ve seen similar claims, but have yet to find even ONE credible report of a teacher’s insistence that a student take medication.   You added more fuel to the fire as you seemed to paint ADHD as a "character" issue: It takes personal character to face life’s adversities successfully, not drugs and counseling.  Personal character comes from "sucking it up" and dealing with the consequences of one’s own behavior and doing the hard work to overcome whatever personality flaws were handed down from previous generations.  

Your message is very clear: that anyone taking medication and undergoing counseling demonstrates a deficiency of character. Can you see how this might not be well-received? In the same post, you brought up another old chestnut: By the way, why aren’t ADHD and ADD problems in Europe?  I understand they are non-existent over there.

…which served to demonstrate a lack of understanding about ADHD. Finally, in your evident frustration, you (unknowingly, I’m sure) invoked Godwin’s Law: Until Nazi’s like you take complete control of this country, I can still speak my mind, most especially when I am asked to do so.

No, he did not need an intervention, you behaviorist Nazi.  Get over yourself.

Why don’t you go fuck yourself?  It is speed.  It’s a controlled substance.  Why don’t you bother to learn something about these things that isn’t being spouted by ‘experts’ with suspect credentials?

I realize that all this may *seem* to you as though your opinions are dismissed out of hand, even addressed contemptuously.  But I think if you’ll go back and review the comments you’ve made, many of them are not only couched in absolute, authoritative and supercilious terms, but are also likely to be taken as truly insulting by people who *know* that much of what you say is just untrue.  The real source of the problem, I think, is that you have chosen NOT to discuss rationally with people whose information–and whose opinions–differs from yours. Joe Parsons Frequently Asked Questions for alt.support.attn-deficit and other resources for dealing with attention deficit disorder are at http://www.cyber-mall.com/asad/

Response:

Filed under: Attention Deficit Disorder

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